Falcon Designer

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DarkLord
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by DarkLord »

So looking forward to this!

(and please pass along best wishes for Curt!)

:)
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

it is tragic that so many young people today have heart problems.

all best wishes to Curt! take all time it needed to regain strength to continue with your life work!

martyg, thank you for yours time and effort!

my apologies for being rude!
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by oehansen »

The Atari vs. Apple was not a failure for apple, nor a win for atari. The reason for this, is very simple. People saw, the color screens of Amiga and Atari, as game toys. Not as professional computers. Which is why IBM and clones, dominated the market, with their Alphanumeric displays.

The Mac, with it's black/white screen made it into the office. Because business people, didn't want a computer like the Atari, into the office. Where they knew script kiddies were playing with them at home. Which is also a reason, why Linux has gotten a huge share of the market. It's not seen as a game computer, but as a professional system.

This is Tramiel's legacy, and failure. Steve Jobs, created Next ... and even though it failed, it gave Steve jobs means to succeed.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by christos »

Linux has gotten a foothold on the server market and not the desktop business market. There its use is minimal at best. You are right though that the business computers dominated the market, though I wouldn't call the market share of Apple on desktop large...
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by oehansen »

You are right about apple's market not being large. But it's a faithful base, which selects Apple because it's not the popular game platform.

And the Server platform, a lot of server administrators like "alphanumeric displays" and loathe the Graphic desktops.

I think the graphics desktop, in general, needs a lot of work ...
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

I just find interview with Shiraz Shivji from 1988.: http://st-news.com/issues/st-news-volum ... az-shivji/

There are some very interesting facts:

- Atari (with Jack Tramiel and Shiraz Shivji) had planed to make next generation computer around Inmos Transputer T800! ST would be used as terminal connected to transputer over DMA port (ASCI).
- Inmos had graphic chip (Colour Lookup Table chip) that Atari used in Atari PC to get VGA display.
- Atari planed Atari EST computer (with 68000) with basically TT graphic modes (1280 x 960 in b/w to 640 x 480 in 16 cols and 640 x 240 in 256 cols)
- Atari also planed 020 computer but due " Motorola delayed the availability of such MMU" for 020 Atari change CPU to 030 (this come as Atari TT)


another interesting fact is from interview with Sam Tramiel from "Next Generation" (April 1995):

"NG: Atari's shifted its emphasis from computers to consoles. Is this a permanent shift or not?

Sam Tramiel: Around the end of 1989, Atari decided that the computer hardware business was too cut-throat, and a proprietary system could not succeed in the long run against the IBM/Intel juggernaut. We decided to focus on the interactive entertainment market."

http://www.metalstuff.com/area64/jaguar/ngtext.html
Last edited by calimero on Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

this is offtopic but since we do not have thread about Atari history facts I will post it here:

WHY ATARI SOLD ST IN EUROPE AND NOT IN USA ?

One of reasons are here: http://www.atarimagazines.com/startv3n1 ... uotes.html

"Atari has had trouble getting the dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) chips it needs ever since the U.S. government slapped trade restrictions on Japanese and other chip suppliers. The government objected to the Japanese selling so many memory chips in the U.S.; because of foreign competition, only two companies (Micron and Texas Instruments) still manufacture DRAM chips in this country.

Because Atari builds most of its computers in the Far East, the machines also face hefty tariffs when they're imported into the U.S.--and that means higher prices. As a result, most STs are now being shipped to Europe, where the ST is very popular and the tariff problems don't exist."
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

Another interesting article about future Atari computers from 1991.:

Much of the technology that we have developed for this (ATW Atari transputer workstation) will feed into future in products that can afford everybody. ... Within the next twelve months is one of the Display of color graphics with 24 or 32 bits per pixel ... In terms of Sound, standard CD-quality sound, so 16-bit stereo sound. ... DSPs are very important building blocks that will increasingly encounter in computers. ... See the end of 1991 all of these functions in computers that cost less than 1000 dollars."

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by Cyprian »

interesting
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by shoggoth »

TOS was clearly heading towards support for alternative graphics solutions.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

calimero wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:16 pm not exactly Falcon but TT father:

Roy Good

"1989 February: Atari Manager of Product Development Roy Good would now be Atari VP Product Engineering (replacing Shiraz Shivji)."

http://mcurrent.name/atarihistory/interactive.html
Link http://mcurrent.name/atarihistory/interactive.html is broken.

New URL is: https://mcurrent.name/atarihistory/tram ... ology.html


--- RANT: ---
how the cluck we ended with this pill of 404 poo? Internet is stream of ever-breaking links and, second: no provenance at all so we ended with this "fake news" mess.

Solution: If Ted Nelson ideas were implemented (among others: two-way links aka "backlinks", as Google called it today) there would be no need for "Google" - Google would not exist at all! And we would not have this "fake news" agenda, we would already have "cure for cancer" and century old patent laws would be obsolete by now.

I urge anyone anyone who feels that "world is deeply broken" listen to Ted Nelson solutions. If anyone like, I would open new thread in "chat" forum to explain how world could be better if Ted Nelson (and Douglas Engelbart) ideas were implemented instead of this T.B. Lee monster that we call "internet".
--- END of RANT ---
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by Rustynutt »

So I'm not the only one posting off topic rants :mrgreen:

If not for Google, I'd never be able to find post on Atari-forum with more than a single word description :)

Haven't tried Goohoo, duckduckgo, Lycos or even AOL for that matter lately :)
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by mpattonm »

Funny no one ever mentioned Bing.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

We have search engine because we do not have two-way links build into to “web”.

Google is famouse becouse he did built data base of becklinks (same thing as two-way links) and use it as basis for their “page rank” system.

Why are two-way links important and why you would not need Google or Yahoo or AltaVista or MSN crap or DuckDuck... to find Atari pages? - because if you are on this forum, you would have ability to see a list of other sites that links to this forum.

So you would find e.g. my site about Atari without anyone explict, on forum, leaving link to my site.

If you have a site, you could see who links to your site. Who and from where.

This backlinks would be build in, they would be public, everyone could make use of them e.g. For building a “page rank” effortlessly.

- this is one property that todays web is missing; and one company that rebuild this missing property now dictate World Wide trends, or better said: human thoughts. Like Eric Smith explained: “more search results on google is not a feature, it is a bug. Goal is to get only one, right answer for your searching term.” More on this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JLAHkdm21ao

- other properties that we still missing today are “transclusion” - instead of copy and paste. Transclusion would point to original source of material that you use. Implementation of Transclusion would lead to permanent files (no more 404) and to versioning system.

All this stuff were proposed in 60s. (and much more, like commentinf on particular piece of text; something that only medium.com recently implement - oposite to comments on complete text like we have for dacades on NewYork Times, The Guardian... of wait, they removed coments completly! :D)


Btw
Can I ask moderators to cut my post with rant to separate thread (and rustynutt post) in “Chat”. Name od the thread could be: “Future and the past of World Wide Web”...


EDIT:
I only now realise Rustynutt that you are refering to broken search on this forum... :D
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by mikro »

I think what are you forgetting Calimero is that one of the goals for the Internet was to be decentralised and able to sustain a nuclear attack on half of the US. Your backlinks and whatnot require some central database which would need to be funded, maintained, protected etc (exactly what Google has and you're complain about). In a way it would require a similar infrastructure as current DNS has and look how many political fights are over such simple thing. Central database with information what to link and where? Come on, that could start a war. :)

Eric Smith's quote in this context is also quite misleading, if I search for "atari", I want to find as many pages as possible to explore other people's atari pages, not one. So yes, we do need a search engine because nobody wants to go through 50 websites which are linked on other websites and remember which one has which link.

A lot of things look great on paper but don't work in real life.

OK, that's my offtopic rant, I'm done. ;-)
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by AnthonyJ »

Imagine the fun a scammer could have if they could simply add links to lots of other pages from their "enter your credit card details here" page to get them to automatically appear on everyone else's site.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

mikro wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:33 am I think what are you forgetting Calimero is that one of the goals for the Internet was to be decentralised and able to sustain a nuclear attack on half of the US. Your backlinks...
It is not "my backlinks" :) Many hypertext systems before WWW had backlinks as fundamental part. It was common thing before www.

Believe me, I would not have a strong opinion if I would not spent hours and hours (years!) researching what people did try, and do, plus analyzing what we have today. (hope mods will split thread so I can make a proper replay...)

Meanwhile, I can recommend conference "Intertwingled: The Work and Influence of Ted Nelson" with many great speakers on subject. There are few hours of lectures worth watch, plus great demo by Alan Kay that can be found separate on YT since he could not make to conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrlSqtpOkw
mikro wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:33 amEric Smith's quote in this context is also quite misleading, if I search for "atari", I want to find as many pages as possible to explore other people's atari pages, not one. So yes, we do need a search engine because nobody wants to go through 50 websites which are linked on other websites and remember which one has which link.
It is not misleading, it is exact Google agenda!


I urge moderators to split the thread. We will spoil this great thread about "Falcon Designer"!
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by sporniket »

calimero wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:04 am I urge moderators to split the thread. We will spoil this great thread about "Falcon Designer"!
+1

I quickly had a look at the 'transclusion' thing you mentionned and a little bit about Ted Nelson and it's concepts (thanks wikipedia), and then I understood why, from a standpoint of economy, it was bound to failure as soon as the 'web' was implemented and spread.

One weakness of the backlink, if I understand correctly, is that it requires each published ressource to keep track of "who linked to me", and with the transclusion concept, it should goes down to tracking "who has excerpted a portion of me". In other words I see that as "heavy", when the web is "lean".

Now, the transclusion, to my mind, would make the "404 poo" worse instead of better. Published ressources does not exists forever, and it has become worse with digital right management (think about 'transcluded' youtube video displaying 'this video cannot be seen because this and that legalese reason'). So, copy/paste for the win, at the cost of storing duplicated of data.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by calimero »

I really hesitate to answer because of mentioned reasons..i. I am glad that some of you took some time and investigate by yourself about Ted Neslon and his ideas.

Whole system would be would quite a different that we have today. We need to dive into history to understand what is going on:

Todays computers are based on Xerox ideas of how computers should operated (Steve Jobs and Bill Gates was vocal about this). Xerox was “fastest growing company” (as Atari in later years) because they hold patents on copy machines back in 60s.

If Gutenberg printing machine was game changer in our civilization timeline, then Xerox copy machines are step further in that process. (Step further is digital network aka “internet”).

What then happens is that some people had ideas to put monitors (screens) on computers (in 60s) and to make “paperless office”. This would be a direct attack on Xerox business so Xerox decide to use it’s money (from monopoly position) and to hire best of the best people from computer industry and to ensure that computers would become machines for printing more paper (enchanting their core business), never to expose its full potential (that eventualy happend few decades later with Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft).

Xerox basicly dumb dumb computers to “smart” typewriters. You need to watch Douglas Engelbart, Alan Kay, Ted Nelson, Ivan Sutherland... ideas and demos to understand what computers could become.


In case of transclusion, there will be no copy and paste in sense that we have today: We have digital data on computers, if you want to make a copy of digital data, there is no sense to copy that data, you just need to reference to it.

This simple idea back in 60s would use power of new machines, computers, to enable something that was not possible before (Paper could not do it). Instead we got computers like smart-typewriters.

Lary Teslar is “invetor” of Copy and paste. If you listen to some of his interviews, you can feel that he regret for inventing copy and paste such is. Same is with Tim Berns Lee: he is super vocal in last two decades, trying to undo damage that he cause with dumb down idea of “hypertext” to WWW: Unbelievable massive “sea” of unconnected data, that appears and vanish... sea where only companies with most resources can swim (mentioned in pasus before: Google, Apple...).

T. B. Lee see his foolishenes to late. Now he is trying to undo damage with his “pods” (please google for everyrhing that I write, I can not transfer my decade long research in forums post :) best I can do is give you a hint what could be done different/better and why).

Computer world is unfinished for sure
(Only constant is variable).

Anyway, idea was that “system” would track transclusions (copy and paste) and they would be publicly avaible (like a database). Same goes for backlinks: system would track backlinks automaticaly and you would not have e.g. Google, private company, that have exclusive access to it (since they used opportunity of “unfinished” product/design to build missing parts and profit from it. Sidenote: I think that Google should pay Tim Berns Lee at least a 10 billion dollars ;) :D ).

Technicaly, implementing transclusion and backlinks are more challeging (also “econimicaly”, like Sporniket notice, but what is purpose of human labor? To provide benefits for 1%? Or to bring prosperyti for majority? If later is goal, then there is no doubt that “uneconomical” system should be implemented if they are benificiar to majority).

System that implement transclusion would must impose version history of documents so no document disaper ever (no 404 errors) and you can always see changes in documents through time. (Any digital data).

Whole “copyright” and patent system would be redefined by micropayments.

Transclusion would resolve “fake news” “problem”, patents problem (Xerox example is great showcase how to hold progress, even to make unrepeired damage to civilisation), it would allow fair and proper micropayments for contributions that metter to society on individual level (for more: listen and read Jaron Lanier).

We would probably had “Cure for cancer” so far and would see true nature of this Corona “crysys”... because you could not forger the documents and they will be publicly avaible if they are metter of public interest.


Who is moderator on forum? MugUK?
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by 1st1 »

Hello, back to topic...

Years ago I found a website where former Atari engineer told his story about the last years/monthes of Atari. Unfortunatelly I didn't saved it to my other collection of such stories (about 370 pages copied from several websites, some long gone). Maybe you know the URL to that story. As far as I remember it was about the late Atari developer team that planned to implement the Jaguar chipset back into Falcon to make a revival. But there were some lazy guys and so they did not step ahead. When Tarmil finally asked about the advances of the project they had nothing to show so Tramil was very upset and shut down the project and gave everything to JTS. Do you know this story and where to find that?

By the way, what happened to "Business is war", when it will be published?
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by mikro »

Calimero, I think the fact that you are unable to explain in 2-3 simple sentences why it's "your" idea so much better over the current solutions and you urge us to google stuff and look on 3 hrs long presentations speak for itself. ;-) It's simply too complex, nobody cares. Hyperlinks are easy to understand even for a 6 y.o. kid.
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by mikro »

1st1: that's the first time I hear story like that.

I'm afraid the book will never be published, now with Curt's departure from our world. :( I think it was him who did most of the interviews and research (I may be wrong here).
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Re: Falcon Designer

Post by dhedberg »

mikro wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:23 am Calimero, I think the fact that you are unable to explain in 2-3 simple sentences why it's "your" idea so much better over the current solutions and you urge us to google stuff and look on 3 hrs long presentations speak for itself. ;-) It's simply too complex, nobody cares. Hyperlinks are easy to understand even for a 6 y.o. kid.
After watching a few interviews and presentations I think I'm prepared to agree with you mikro. I recall that even Ted himself said in an interview that of all the people he'd try to explain the concepts for, only a few (handful?) of them got it. Whether these people actually liked/believed in the concepts is not disclosed. So, the concepts seem to either be too hard to grasp, or perhaps more likely, too complex to implement efficiently, or the implementation introduces vulnerabilities, such as centralized services/databases. I'm no expert, so I'm just guessing here, but at least that's my impression.
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