Brexit and purchasing

Latest news in the Atari world

Moderators: Mug UK, Silver Surfer, Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
viking272
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:50 pm
Location: west of London, UK

Brexit and purchasing

Post by viking272 »

Hi,

I know the market for Atari items purchased from stores is not the biggest market but there is confusion around the laws, import/export duties and fees.

The UK government has a distinction between online marketplaces (and offline!?)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-ove ... rketplaces

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-ove ... k#contents

It would seem the issue is about VAT payments and from what I can gather for UK orders from EU Stores the VAT needs to be collected at point of sale.
If that doesn’t happen then the shipping company has to calculate the duty owed and add their (approx) 15 euro fee.

It seems EU companies can register for UK VAT which may help matters.

If anyone can shed more on this and perhaps help both UK and EU stores then that’s in all our interests. Otherwise it will be pure segregation and UK will only order from UK and EU only from EU stores.

The Rest of the World is another angle too, feel free to comment.
User avatar
viking272
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:50 pm
Location: west of London, UK

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by viking272 »

This is another UK gov doc I found on the costs and what EU shops can do
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... gnments%20
mlynn1974
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by mlynn1974 »

I am also on an Arcade Forum and there was a big discussion about importing from Europe because of Brexit and the change of import duties from the US. The main problem seems to be around VAT and a blanket +20% imposed by eBay. As we are dealing with Vintage Computer parts being sold by private sellers I would argue that VAT is not applicable as VAT would have been paid at the original time of purchase and the private sellers are unlikely to be turning over £85000+ in private sales every year and are therefore not required to register for VAT. A tax expert might be able to correct me here but I think it is actually illegal to show incorrect rates of VAT on goods and services. eBay is a trading platform, not a means of collecting tax.

I bought some parts for my arcade machine from USA last year and postage costs were high, but now I think they're +20% due to some trade deal ending with the US. The Pitney Bowes postage calculator seems to be random, and a work of fiction that could have been written by J.K. Rowling herself!
Still got, still working: Atari 4Mb STe, 520STFM (x2), 2.5Mb STF, Atari 2600JR, Flashback 8 Gold.
Hardware: Cumana CSA 354, Ultimate Ripper, Blitz Turbo, Synchro Express II (US and UK Versions).
czietz
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by czietz »

To my (non-UK person) understanding, this is what happened: Previously, (like in most countries in the world) the government (i.e., customs) with help from postal and courier companies collected import VAT from the importer/buyer. Now, the UK government had the grand idea of reducing their effort with this by placing the burden to register for and pay VAT on the foreign seller or its online marketplace (such as eBay) -- at least for items valued less than GBP 135.

Since, e.g., eBay can be held liable by the UK government for every pound of VAT they fail to collect, it's fully understandable that they chose to err on the side of caution. (eBay cannot possibly and conclusively check whether an exemption would apply.)

For small commercial sellers that do not use an online marketplace the situation is even more dire. They have to deal with all the bureaucracy involved with UK taxes. (Imagine every country had the same idea...)
stormy
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 958
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by stormy »

@czietz

It's not so much a big deal, we've always had to fill out tax and customs paperwork for anything we ship to USA because they weren't part of the EU. Can you imagine how much work it would be for customs to manage buyers import tax for every single EU country & the rest of the world, they would have to quadruple their staff or worse.

From a smart and logical point of view, it makes sense.
Falcon CT60e 060 - 256mb ram - Phantom bus and DSP accelerated // Atari TT - Thunder and Storm IDE 64mb ram - Lightning VME - USB LAN - ATI Mach64 2mb
czietz
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by czietz »

You're missing the key point here.

Every other country in the world (e.g. USA): Fill out a customs declaration (CN22/CN23 if sent by regular mail), send parcel. In the destination country, a customs official calculates what is due and the buyer will pay taxes and duties, if applicable.

But only the UK expects the seller (or the online marketplace) to register directly with the UK's tax office and to pay them directly. Thus, from an EU seller's perspective it's significantly more effort to sell to the UK than to other non-EU countries across the world.
ICS
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:26 am
Location: .de

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by ICS »

czietz wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:57 pm You're missing the key point here.

Every other country in the world (e.g. USA): Fill out a customs declaration (CN22/CN23 if sent by regular mail), send parcel. In the destination country, a customs official calculates what is due and the buyer will pay taxes and duties, if applicable.

But only the UK expects the seller (or the online marketplace) to register directly with the UK's tax office and to pay them directly. Thus, from an EU seller's perspective it's significantly more effort to sell to the UK than to other non-EU countries across the world.
LOL is there really someone who will do that?
Pay taxes for someone else?
And free of charge even?
Sounds like a wet dream rather than reality.
stormy
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 958
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by stormy »

No ICS the seller charges the customer for that tax and then passes it on to the government at the end of the year.
Falcon CT60e 060 - 256mb ram - Phantom bus and DSP accelerated // Atari TT - Thunder and Storm IDE 64mb ram - Lightning VME - USB LAN - ATI Mach64 2mb
User avatar
mpattonm
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:52 am
Location: Czech republic
Contact:

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by mpattonm »

Right... nope, thank you.
User avatar
Count
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:15 am
Location: Germany

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by Count »

That is so weird. 8O
joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by joska »

czietz wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:05 pm To my (non-UK person) understanding, this is what happened: Previously, (like in most countries in the world) the government (i.e., customs) with help from postal and courier companies collected import VAT from the importer/buyer. Now, the UK government had the grand idea of reducing their effort with this by placing the burden to register for and pay VAT on the foreign seller or its online marketplace (such as eBay) -- at least for items valued less than GBP 135.
It's a great idea. This was implemented in Norway too 1/1-2020, and although this meant that we had to pay VAT on everything (prior to that we only had to pay VAT on purchases above ~€35) it has made it a *lot* cheaper and easier to shop abroad. Why? Because the greedy Norwegian postal services charges anywhere from €15 to €300 to collect the VAT - for each package. eBay, Alibaba, Wish, Amazon etc does it for almost free. It's very convenient too, instead of received a bill of €15 + VAT and then have to go to the post office to pay and collect the package, everything arrives directly in my mailbox.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega STE - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by Rustynutt »

Now I'm totally confused.
So I send a broken 1993 part to a user in the UK. It is worthless, but must list value as $1
If the UK Government expects me to pay 20 pence to the order, and submit it later in time, i have a ship full of tea for them to pick up.
I can understand those operating as a business, but for us "swap meet" sellers, about all you can select is "gift", and they still want a value.
Iv sent to Russia a Falcon, under $1000 is not considered and they don't worry about value to that point.

So I sell my used old CLAB MKX to a user in the UK, or EU for $3000 UDS. In the US, there is no tax, it's been paid long ago.
Sure, for insurance purposes, it's $3000, but that's not the transaction value.
Am I reading as a private seller I am to withhold a VAT and send it off to Bojo or some België flusie?
czietz
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 6:47 pm

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by czietz »

joska wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:44 pm It's a great idea. This was implemented in Norway too 1/1-2020, and although this meant that we had to pay VAT on everything (prior to that we only had to pay VAT on purchases above ~€35) it has made it a *lot* cheaper and easier to shop abroad. Why? Because the greedy Norwegian postal services charges anywhere from €15 to €300 to collect the VAT - for each package. eBay, Alibaba, Wish, Amazon etc does it for almost free. It's very convenient too, instead of received a bill of €15 + VAT and then have to go to the post office to pay and collect the package, everything arrives directly in my mailbox.
Sure, big marketplaces or sellers (such as eBay, Amazon, ...) will be well-equipped to handle VAT collection. But -- as you know -- most retro stuff is sold by small shops, where you might even be the only Norwegian customer in a year. Let's suppose you buy a MonSTer :wink:. Do you think it's a great idea that Alan has register with the Norwegian tax office, maybe pay a fee for doing so, and then has to keep track of Norwegian VAT rates and payments, etc.?

Same goes for non-UK sellers and UK customers, of course. Like I said: Imagine all 200 (or so) countries start doing so.
joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by joska »

I just bought a MonSTer, and had to pay the £15 fee in addition to VAT. So Alan can still sell me stuff without worrying about the Norwegian VAT. I'm quite sure UK has a similar system.
Same goes for non-UK sellers and UK customers, of course. Like I said: Imagine all 200 (or so) countries start doing so.
EU is working on such a system, to simplify import from non-EU countries. This is something the rest of the world will have to deal with if they want to do business with EU.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega STE - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64
User avatar
viking272
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:50 pm
Location: west of London, UK

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by viking272 »

So things are still far from straight forward for us Brits at the moment. Many delays for imports and high custom fees.
I received a package from CenturionTech today which today 3.5 weeks and came through UK customs without fees. Although it was 80 euro it was listed on the CN22 declaration as 19 euro. :)

However one thing is really strange, last year I bought a fancy kitchen tap from Australia and paid import duty - about £70 tax on the new value of the tap.
I fitted it in January and it had a fault and leak in the main chassis of the tap. The manufacturer agreed it was their fault and would sent a new free of charge one as a replacement from Germany. It arrived this week with a £300.28 customs bill to be paid!! The tax is about 70% of the value of the tap but the same tap last year was £70 tax - two wildly different tax fees.

I've heard that items under £135 are not subject to tax now as a friend received goods worth £128 recently and it was tax/duty free.

So much for a trade agreement...if anyone has more info or ideas then please share!
User avatar
calimero
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2484
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:01 am
Location: Serbia
Contact:

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by calimero »

I never understood why that guy from Poland (Lotharek) refuse to subtract EU VAT from price of HXC usb drive.

I am from Serbia (non EU) and I will for sure pay import taxes and VAT here in Serbia. Why to pay it double (in EU and in Serbia)?! He argue that he must include EU VAT in price regardless that he sending parcel outside EU...

Make no sense. They could extra charge if I have a beard! :D oh, wait, they already did that in past...
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X
trecool
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:49 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Brexit and purchasing

Post by trecool »

To get my Monster board (to Greece) I had 15e import tax + 25e VAT a good 40 extra euros for me. Not progress to me.
Post Reply

Return to “News & Announcements”