NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

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MattM1121
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NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by MattM1121 »

Greetings,

I'm having a difficult time understanding how NVDI is used. I'm currently using Hatari 2.3.1 and the NeoDesk/Geneva package as a Desktop/Multitasking environment. (I never realized how powerful that combo is.)

I've read some posts talking about NVDI but I'm not sure if it would benefit any emulators. There's a lot of info and I kind of got info-overload. Can someone provide some information for me? Since Hatari has a VDI option does the NVDI package enhance that? If so what's the benefit? Also, what version would work well with NeoDesk/Geneva?

I appreciate any feedback.

Thanks,
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by Cyprian »

two main NVDI benefits are:
1) it speeds graphics operations
2) adds a new VDI functionality like: printing, off-screen graphics, Bitstream/vector fonts
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by ThorstenOtto »

Printing does not work very well nowadays, because of lack of printer drivers for newer devices. offscreen-bitmaps are rarely used i think. That leaves only vector fonts, which are mostly needed in word processing (but calamus for example has its own fonts and drivers). So if you need vector fonts, you need nvdi 3.x at least. Nvdi 5.x has some more, rarely used, internal features, but is also larger. If you can get away without vector fonts, you may as well use NVDI 2.5
Since Hatari has a VDI option does the NVDI package enhance that? I
Hatari's VDI option just gives you a custom (typically larger) screen size. You still need NVDI for faster screen output.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by MattM1121 »

Thanks for the input. I'll give NVDI a try.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by JonGibbins »

I'm so pleased to see I'm not the only one trying to use Geneva/NeoDesk4 and NVDI in 2021 !
I haven't managed to get it working as yet as I always encounter the message 'Please run the system extension WDIALOG which is supplied with NVDI ..." once the desktop starts up. WDIALOG is in the AUTO folder and I have tried reordering the AUTo so that it runs before/after the Geneva & NeoDesk PRGs but to no avail.
Anyone else had any luck?
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by ThorstenOtto »

IIRC, Neodesk came with its own, specialized version of Wdialog (N.Dialog?)
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by wongck »

My guess is that it is cops. Disable that and see if you need it.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by Eero Tamminen »

MattM1121 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:42 am Since Hatari has a VDI option does the NVDI package enhance that? If so what's the benefit?
Hatari VDI option reserves larger area from ST-RAM for screen updates of given bit-depth. When TOS screen updates / VDI operations need to update more pixels, they are also slower. Therefore NVDI VDI acceleration can be even more welcome with Hatari VDI mode.

(Hatari "VDI mode" is called that because it updates VDI & Line-A variables so that rest of the system knows screen to have different size, and because typically only GEM/VDI applications query VDI variables for screen size, non-GEM games & demos do not.)
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by arf »

ThorstenOtto wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:25 am Printing does not work very well nowadays, because of lack of printer drivers for newer devices.
Well, NVDI may be useful to get hi-res “printing” into an image, or a hi-res PCL file, from within GDOS applications.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by Rustynutt »

Have a couple of gizmos from years ago I need to test sometime.
As far as I remember, they don't use drivers.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by joska »

ThorstenOtto wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:00 am IIRC, Neodesk came with its own, specialized version of Wdialog (N.Dialog?)
You are thinking of N.AES.

WDialog should only be used with plain TOS and nothing else. Geneva included.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by wongck »

Rustynutt wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:32 am Have a couple of gizmos from years ago I need to test sometime.
As far as I remember, they don't use drivers.
You can still get new LPT-ethernet printer server nowadays.
What are the stuff you have on mind to test?
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by ThorstenOtto »

joska wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:15 am You are thinking of N.AES.
Ah, right. Should the culprit be COPS, then you should be aware that there is a new version of COPS that does not require WDIALOG anymore. But of course there might be other programs that also require Wdialog.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by joska »

ThorstenOtto wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:25 am Printing does not work very well nowadays, because of lack of printer drivers for newer devices.
https://www.retroprinter.com/
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by Rustynutt »

wongck wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:46 am
Rustynutt wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:32 am Have a couple of gizmos from years ago I need to test sometime.
As far as I remember, they don't use drivers.
You can still get new LPT-ethernet printer server nowadays.
What are the stuff you have on mind to test?
You know hadn't really looked into it, they have been from box to box for years. Remember really liking the old (ok, old old old) HP Laserjet 4M series, and also the old inkjet Epson Photo Pro series printers (hate the price of cartridges).
Either of those have current models that would be " backward" compatible print language wise?
We currently have a Brother Laserjet on the network, it's held up well now for 4 or 5 years, wife says it's time for some color output now. Be nice to tie the Falcon into the loop.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by AtariX »

Hello ! I am running Hatari as well, on OSX. I am able to run Geneva/NeoDesk with NVDI 5/COPS, or SpeedoGDOS 5/XControl, (I also run Geneva/Jinnee with the same configurations). I like NVDI and the Monaco font it can set as system font. One limitation of NVDI however is that it does not support Harari extended VDI modes. Thus 640x480 VGA is the highest resolution you can get. SpeedoGDOS does not have this limitation.

If you’re still interested, I can provide more details.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by shoggoth »

Why can't the Hatari devs just write a driver instead of that hacky whacky almost-functional stuff. I use Hatari all the time - it does lots of things extremely well - but it's like lovely custard with a very very very thin layer of poop on top of it. The hacky stuff cause recursive vomitation; I get that the GEMDOS driver part needs some hacks to work on all TOS revisions (but they could do something clean for EmuTOS), but the extended VDI stuff could easily be solved in a clean way.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by AtariX »

Maybe you could find a driver for the Hatari extended modes. I haven’t spent time looking for that. At least the extended modes don’t work out of the box.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by joska »

NVDI is working fine with Hatari's extended VDI modes as shown in this screenshot.
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by AtariX »

Interesting! How did you configure NVDI to make it work ? What version of NVDI are you running?
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by joska »

This is NVDI 2.51. I did not configure it in any particular way, it was installed normally on a real Mega STE (no graphics card).
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by AtariX »

Interesting, thanks a lot for the information!
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Re: NeoDesk 4/Geneva and NVDI

Post by AtariX »

I’ve checked and updated my NVDI 5 installation from the archive that is here : https://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39652

Turns out my installation was incomplete and was missing drivers.

With the new NVDI 5 installation, NVDI works fine also under Hatari extended VDI modes. :-)

Many thanks for pointing that NVDI should work under Hatari extended VDI modes !
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