MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

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philexile
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MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Hello,

I wanted to please request a feature for the MSX Mist (msx_mist_210712). The 1chip MSX has physical dip switches on the bottom of the unit, and with the older ocmsx_161226 core these dip settings were adjustable by hitting the F12 key 2x.

Could this functionality be added to the current MSX Mist core? I personally need it to enable 15khz RGB interlaced video – or 240p. Currently only CRT VGA is available in the core, and 15khz is unable to be forced with the mist.ini.

Also, the sound volume on this core also seems to be low compared to the others. Could that be adjusted also?

Thank you!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by DanyPPC »

This are the functions of F-Keys:
MSX-OCM_Keyboard_map.jpg
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Thank you for sharing that. I still have issues though:

• The 15khz mode doesn't save as the default, and when the core is reset it reverts to 31khz. Is there a way to set this as the default?

• The geometry of 15khz mode is skewed and distorted slightly. This isn't the case when using 15khz in the older version of the MSX core.

This has happened with other cores in the past, and it was resolved by setting csync_disable to 1 in the mist.ini. Unfortunately, this doesn't correct this issue with this core.

There is a small difference between the two cores: this one is 15.62k, and the older core is 15.63k – I use an Extron 203rxi to check this.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by DanyPPC »

Sincerely I use MSX OCM core on MiSTICA wired to a PAL Philips 8833mk2 monitor via Scart RGB with no issues.

Mist.ini:

[mist]
keyrah_mode=0
scandoubler_disable=1
mouse_boot_mode=0
joystick_ignore_hat=0
joystick_ignore_osd=0
joystick_disable_shortcuts=0
joystick0_prefer_db9=0
key_menu_as_rgui=0
reset_combo=0
ypbpr=0
keep_video_mode=0
led_animation=0
joystick_remap=0079,0011,1,2,4,8,8,10,20,10,400,800,0,0,40,80
joy_key_map=400,2c
joy_key_map=800,2c
philexile
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Hello,

I'll try again this evening, but this didn't work properly for me yesterday.

I guess another option here would be to stick with ocmsx_161226 and use it instead of msx_mist_210712.rbf.

Are there significant improvements between OCMSX and MSX MIST? I couldn't find any specific details on the GitHub.

Thank you
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:56 pm Hello,

Are there significant improvements between OCMSX and MSX MIST? I couldn't find any specific details on the GitHub.

Thank you
You can browse https://gnogni.altervista.org/ for changes. There are numerous improvements.

The default setting from the scandoubler comes from mist.ini, as in other cores.
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

slingshot wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 pm The default setting from the scandoubler comes from mist.ini, as in other cores.
Hi Slingshot,

I just tried this again and it doesn't work. I've outlined the behavior below for clarity:

* Asterisk indicates that the Extron 203rxi reports resolution is 31.26k x 59.9hz.

• If I set the scandoubler_disable to 1 in mist.ini, the core boots and the image is rolling (incorrect vertical sync):

– pressing "print screen" 1x - image colors change from white and blue to yellow and black, image still rolls*
- pressing "print screen" 2x - appears to switch back to 31k and the colors are correct, but the image still rolls*
- pressing "print screen" 3x - the images becomes completely garbled, Extron 203rxi reports: no signal
- pressing "print screen" 4x - starts back at the original resolution*

• If I set scandoubler_disable to 0 in the mist.ini, the core boots without a rolling image, but in 31k mode:

– pressing "print screen" 1x – no picture, Extron 203rxi reports: no signal
- pressing "print screen" 2x - changes to 15k mode, Extron 203rxi reports: 15.62k x 59.9hz
- pressing "print screen" 3x - image colors change from white and blue to yellow and black*
- pressing "print screen" 4x - starts back at the original resolution*

Also, after I press "print screen" 2x and the core switches to 15k mode, the image geometry becomes skewed. This is very noticeable in the "box" outline of the SofaRun menu.

To me, it seems like the mist.ini and the core are conflicting with one another. My Mist firmware is ATH211001, and the MSX core is v1.0.210712

If it helps, I can post a video of this behavior.

Thank you
slingshot
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:40 am
slingshot wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 pm The default setting from the scandoubler comes from mist.ini, as in other cores.
Hi Slingshot,

I just tried this again and it doesn't work. I've outlined the behavior below for clarity:

* Asterisk indicates that the Extron 203rxi reports resolution is 31.26k x 59.9hz.

• If I set the scandoubler_disable to 1 in mist.ini, the core boots and the image is rolling (incorrect vertical sync):
Can you try to change the "VGA output" OSD option? It sets one of the dip switches.
As I see, the core doesn't honor csync_disable, so you'll get composite sync in 15kHz mode in every case. That might be not good for you monitor, if it expects separate syncs (it's for TV sets).
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

slingshot wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:15 pm Can you try to change the "VGA output" OSD option? It sets one of the dip switches.
I tried that and unfortunately switching to LCD doesn't solve anything. LCD mode only offsets the image, and white/blue becomes yellow/black.
slingshot wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:15 pm As I see, the core doesn't honor csync_disable, so you'll get composite sync in 15kHz mode in every case. That might be not good for you monitor, if it expects separate syncs (it's for TV sets).
Ah – this could be the issue! I didn't expect MiST to output composite sync. I have a Sony GVM-2020 monitor, which is very forgiving and does accept composite sync.

However, I'm also using an Extron Crosspoint as a distribution switch for my various systems, including the MiST. The Crosspoints are fantastic, flexible devices with one exception: they do not accept composite sync.

I'm going to try wiring the MiST directly to the monitor to see if that solves some of these problems.

Side question: do some of the other cores, like NES, output composite sync without the csync_disable flag set to 1?

Thanks again
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:04 pm
Side question: do some of the other cores, like NES, output composite sync without the csync_disable flag set to 1?
At 15kHz (scandoubler_disabled = 1) - yes, it's composite sync without csync_disable
At 31kHz (scandoubler_disabled = 0) - always separate sync
Basically if a core uses the mist_video pipeline, then the rules above will applied automatically.
MSX seems one exception - but easy to fix. I'll do it sooner or later...
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

slingshot wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:25 pm At 15kHz (scandoubler_disabled = 1) - yes, it's composite sync without csync_disable
This explains some of the behavior I've seen with the other cores. My solution has been to do the following:

scandoubler_disabled = 1
csync_disable = 1


This sets 15k mode, and separates sync to H and V.

If I use the settings below instead, I get the slightly skewed image as I've described in this post.

scandoubler_disabled = 1
csync_disable = 0


That said: I'm actually surprised this worked at all with the Extron Crosspoint if this compsosite sync (sync + composite video). In most cases, the Crosspoint will only accept clean sync (true csync).
slingshot wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:25 pm Basically if a core uses the mist_video pipeline, then the rules above will applied automatically.
If it is possible, I would suggest adding a setting to MiST firmware that will enable/disable composite sync, perhaps like this:

composite_sync_disable = 1 this would only send sync signals on the sync line
compsoite_sync_disable = 0 this would send sync signals + composite video

This would be good for two reasons:

1. People who need clean sync would have this as an option
2. The reverse of option 1, plus it would also be possible to use this for composite video output

This leads me to another question: do we know what sync level voltage the MiST generates? TTL can be as high as 5v, which is fine for older video monitors and equipment built for it like the Extron Crosspoints, but not so much for more modern devices like video upscalers (XRGB Mini, OSSC, etc). For those sync should be set to around 700mV.
slingshot wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:25 pm MSX seems one exception - but easy to fix. I'll do it sooner or later...
Sound great – I'll try to test on my end later today!

Thanks again!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:50 pm That said: I'm actually surprised this worked at all with the Extron Crosspoint if this compsosite sync (sync + composite video). In most cases, the Crosspoint will only accept clean sync (true csync).
Composite sync is not composite video!
The video output is always RGB (or YPbPr).
Composite sync is simply hsync+vsync on one wire (on the hsync line, while vsync is constant 1 in this case).
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Composite sync is not composite video!
Okay – I'll have to test a direct output to my monitor and will get back to you.

I thought you meant that the MSX core was outputting "standard" composite sync, meaning with composite video on the sync line. From what I read, this was the standard for SCART in Europe: SCART pin 20 was both composite video and sync.

Thanks again
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

I tested with my MiST connected directly to my monitor – everything behaved exactly the same way.

If there is a way to update the most current MSX core to work in a similar way to the other MiST cores in regards to video, that'd be amazing.

For me, I need to be able to set the following in the mist.ini file:

scandoubler_disabled = 1
csync_disable = 1 *


* For whatever reason, when H and V sync are combined by the MiST, it causes a slightly skewed geometry.

That said: this doesn't happen with other CSYNC that I use, like a Twin Famicom which uses a NESRGB board. I may dig out my oscilloscope and probe the output out of two and compare out of curiosity.

Thank you!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:34 pm
Composite sync is not composite video!
Okay – I'll have to test a direct output to my monitor and will get back to you.

I thought you meant that the MSX core was outputting "standard" composite sync, meaning with composite video on the sync line. From what I read, this was the standard for SCART in Europe: SCART pin 20 was both composite video and sync.

Thanks again
SCART has much more functions - RGB for example (switched by pin 16). Composite video would need only one pin + GND (RCA jack usually). And has an awful quality, compared to RGB or component video.
But even in RGB mode, there's only one sync pin, that's why composite SYNC (not video!) is the default on MiST.
However there can be some 15kHz monitors, which has separate hsync+vsync inputs (on VGA, this is the default). In this case, the constant '1' on VSync can show itself as a rolling picture.
If your monitor is OK with csync_disable = 1 and 15kHz on other cores, but gives rolling picture on MSX, then that's the problem.
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

SCART has much more functions - RGB for example (switched by pin 16). Composite video would need only one pin + GND (RCA jack usually).
Oh, I know, I've dealt with SCART too much, unfortunately! I had to make many sets of SCART to BNC breakout cables over the years. :)
And has an awful quality, compared to RGB or component video.
Well, it depends on the system. PC Engine composite output isn't actually that bad, compared to something like the NES or Genesis, the latter of which has the worst composite output in my opinion.
But even in RGB mode, there's only one sync pin, that's why composite SYNC (not video!) is the default on MiST.
You're probably right:

Image

I never use composite through SCART, but I do know that some of these consoles passed sync via composite through pin 20. That may have been a cost savings thing though, and not to the SCART spec as shown above.
However there can be some 15kHz monitors, which has separate hsync+vsync inputs (on VGA, this is the default). In this case, the constant '1' on VSync can show itself as a rolling picture. If your monitor is OK with csync_disable = 1 and 15kHz on other cores, but gives rolling picture on MSX, then that's the problem.
This is precisely what is happening with the Sony GVM-2020. Is there a way to correct this?
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:44 pm
This is precisely what is happening with the Sony GVM-2020. Is there a way to correct this?
Yeah, change the sync output here:
https://github.com/gyurco/MSX_MiST/blob ... SX.sv#L386

Upd.: try this one
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Short answer: this works! Thank you!! :)

Longer answer below:

• I booted initially with the following INI settings:

scandoubler_disabled=1
csync_disable=1


No rolling picture, which was great! I did notice that the image was slightly skewed, which I'd mentioned as an issue before. In those cases I was using CSYNC though, and here it was outputting RGBHV, which is puzzling. Images are shown below:

Image

• It is hard to see, but the upper and lower left side of the image is bowed in a bit, and the upper right corner has a wavy appearance. I've included a closeup below to show this more clearly:

Image

Next, I tried the following settings:

scandoubler_disabled=1
csync_disable=0


This looked great, without any skewed images:

Image

So this is a little confusing as it is the opposite behavior as I'd seen before in regards to the skewing and geometry issues.

I guess my question is: did you do something different here then what was done for other cores like NES and SNES?

Thanks again for your help!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:44 pm Short answer: this works! Thank you!! :)
Yippie!
I guess my question is: did you do something different here then what was done for other cores like NES and SNES?

Thanks again for your help!
I did not, but the display generation and timings are different between the cores, it's like comparing apples vs oranges.
Also probably your monitor does not have a problem with composite sync at all, just some fixed code made it work in both cases.
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Got it – thank you for your help with the video! I played a lot of MSX tonight! :)

I have one other request: the sound volume is incredibly low. I'm able to raise it a bit using PAGE UP, but I still have to crank up my speakers when compared to all of the other cores.

Is there a way that you can increase the default sound volume?

Thanks again!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:54 am
Is there a way that you can increase the default sound volume?

Thanks again!
There's some weird code with the sound - if you turn on tape sounds, then it behaves as it should, otherwise only the left channel is enabled. Is it better if you enable tapes sounds in the OSD?
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

I tried turning on tape sounds, but it didn't seem to make a difference.

Could the volume just be set low in general? The older MSX core didn't have this issue.

Thanks again for looking into this!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by slingshot »

philexile wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:52 pm I tried turning on tape sounds, but it didn't seem to make a difference.

Could the volume just be set low in general? The older MSX core didn't have this issue.

Thanks again for looking into this!
It's not "set" to anywhere, probably the different DACs used could be the culprit.
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Hi Slingshot,

Sorry, I'm not a programmer obviously. :)

Do you mean the different DAC used in the MiST as compared to the KDL units?

Would there be a way to amplify the sound a bit by default?

Thanks again!
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Re: MSX Mist - Dip Switch Request

Post by philexile »

Quick update: turning TAPE SOUND to OFF resolved the problem more or less. I swear this had no effect the other day....

Also, it seems like the right channel audio is more muffled than left for whatever reason when it is set to ON.

Thanks again!
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