New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

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Will You be interester with buying of:

New Super Videl
92
47%
SATA/USB Board
60
31%
I do not have CT60e, I have to buy CT60e first.
42
22%
 
Total votes: 194

Rudy777
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby Rudy777 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:43 pm

Hi :) I' also interested in 2 boards for falcon ct60... Is there any news when there is a chance for that project to materialise?

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby Rudy777 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:55 pm

Hi :) I'm also interested in 2 boards for ct60... Is there any news when the boards will materialise?

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby watzl-berg » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:37 pm

Yes!I am also interested in an new supervidel and if possible in Svetlana and USB-Board

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby 1st1 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:57 pm

Still waiting for a supervidel...
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby ragnar76 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:50 pm

i'd like to have one too :)

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby Chrisi » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:38 pm

I would also by for sure one or eventually two Super Videls

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby stormy » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:14 pm

It has been a year since any update... ;(
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby Trixster » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:31 pm

I can only assume this project has fallen by the wayside, which is a shame given nearly a hundred people have actively shown interest.
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby mpattonm » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:57 pm

If I may suggest, try to talk to Nature team, perhaps they would eventually agree to release their design files to public. I know instream, who is by the way following this topic as far as I know, is a very pleasant person to talk to.

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby tjam » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:34 am

I would like to buy two or three SuperVidel boards.

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby sety » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:32 pm

mpattonm wrote:If I may suggest, try to talk to Nature team, perhaps they would eventually agree to release their design files to public. I know instream, who is by the way following this topic as far as I know, is a very pleasant person to talk to.


Didn't Willy buy the licensing rights from Nature?

I'm glad someone brought this thread back because I'm really hanging out...
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby leech » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:45 am

sety wrote:
mpattonm wrote:If I may suggest, try to talk to Nature team, perhaps they would eventually agree to release their design files to public. I know instream, who is by the way following this topic as far as I know, is a very pleasant person to talk to.


Didn't Willy buy the licensing rights from Nature?

I'm glad someone brought this thread back because I'm really hanging out...

I really want there to be MORE of these out there, I managed to bid the poo out of the one I have in my Falcon, because I knew they'd probably take years to ever have any more made, if there were any ever made again...

But I want more of them out there so maybe, just maybe we can get some developers writing / porting some games over to use the SV! There are quite a few ports for standard Falcons, and 060 Falcons... but very little 060+SuperVidel Falcons! I think there is that one game that Nature themselves started to write, but hasn't been fully released yet. Other than that, only applications that don't misbehave really use it.
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby mikro » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:45 am

leech wrote:There are quite a few ports for standard Falcons, and 060 Falcons... but very little 060+SuperVidel Falcons!

Any (recent-ish) SDL1 port should utilise SV automatically as there is support for its new modes and C2P-less rendering. As far as mine are concerned, at least Atari800 and Quake uses SV capabilities. I don't think there's need for explicit SV support in TBL demos, they are fast enough as they are.

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby sety » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:04 pm

Would there be enough interest to crowd-source the funds required to buy the production files and rights from the current owner and put them in the open source community where they belong?
ATARI FALCON/CT60 @99/25Mhz 512MB - ATARI FALCON/CT60e @101.5/16Mhz 256MB - 520STF 1MB TF68020 - 520ST unmodified (my very first computer) - A couple of useless XE's - and a really cool Atari desktop calculator :)

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby leech » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:45 pm

mikro wrote:
leech wrote:There are quite a few ports for standard Falcons, and 060 Falcons... but very little 060+SuperVidel Falcons!

Any (recent-ish) SDL1 port should utilise SV automatically as there is support for its new modes and C2P-less rendering. As far as mine are concerned, at least Atari800 and Quake uses SV capabilities. I don't think there's need for explicit SV support in TBL demos, they are fast enough as they are.

Oh that reminds me, I still need to test the updated port of Atari800!
Yeah, I think overall it isn't so much support, but explicit use of the SV. Would be nice to get a TOS patch for 32bit icons too ha. But using a desktop replacement is fone anyhow.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby mpattonm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:14 pm

sety wrote:Would there be enough interest to crowd-source the funds required to buy the production files and rights from the current owner and put them in the open source community where they belong?

I will certainly put some money in it. But please, talk to Nature.

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby mikro » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:26 pm

leech wrote:Yeah, I think overall it isn't so much support, but explicit use of the SV.

What use do you have in mind? You can use its Blitter for certain tasks but when it comes to 3D rendering (think Quake for instance) there's nothing you can really do better with SV. Bigger resolution = more data to move around = slower result. So really, the biggest SV advantage is C2P-less rendering, not the better resolutions. Even 68060 has its limits.

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby joska » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:25 pm

mikro wrote:So really, the biggest SV advantage is C2P-less rendering, not the better resolutions. Even 68060 has its limits.


To me the biggest advantage is the higher resolutions (for GEM stuff) and much, much faster bus.
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby leech » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:54 pm

joska wrote:
mikro wrote:So really, the biggest SV advantage is C2P-less rendering, not the better resolutions. Even 68060 has its limits.


To me the biggest advantage is the higher resolutions (for GEM stuff) and much, much faster bus.

Yeah, pretty much this. Granted, most GEM stuff will just work and take advantage of it. Though it was already explained it's currently impossible, would love to see someone figure out how to rotate the resolution, to use a large screen vertically (since page layout software like Calamus would completely rock this way!)

But yeah doing some higher resolution gaming would be pretty sweet too. The SV is probably the best 'we upgraded old things to be better' implementation I know of. Most of the others (including the VME video cards) require some other video output. The only downside in this really though is if you switch to 030 mode, it doesn't work, so you still sort of need that video switching ability. VBXE on the 8 bit Ataris is the only other one I know that is very smooth, and you don't really have to flip between normal output and the newer one (like for example most RTG cards on the Amiga have to have separate outputs).

But for sure it's hard to justify to develop extra features that the SV has, when they're a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of Falcon owners. But for the aforementioned Calamus, version 2015+, it requires at least 800x600@256 colors, which you sort of have to push and tweak a stock Falcon to get there. Works great on the SV though.
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby mikro » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:18 am

Yes, that's why I explicitly said "when it comes to 3D rendering" :)

What I meant is that if you have a 3D heavy game/demo, the biggest gain will come from skipping the C2P process + faster bus. As soon as you start using its enhanced resolutions, SuperVidel's advantages start disappearing because it will be simply too much for the poor 060. Once I tried running Quake in C2P-less 640x480@8-bit, it was just crawling.

I just wanted to note it, when I saw that "hey, why there is not much software using SuperVidel". That software is fine as it is, with a few lines of code to skip C2P and write to SV memory (0xA0xxxxxx) instead of ST-RAM.

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby shoggoth » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:17 am

@leech:

Screen rotation could be achieved with some work using the TOS VDI, but I'm fairly confident that it's more or less impossible/hellish to achieve this on the NVDI driver side. So in such case one would have to live with the VDI + NVDI-sans-graphics-drivers combo. This wouldn't require the use of a supervidel, but could work on a stock machine as will (as long as it's TOS 4).

(I'm saying this with a certain insight in the graphics driver department, it's not speculation. It was looked into while throwing together the SV drivers).
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby evil » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:36 pm

mikro wrote:Yes, that's why I explicitly said "when it comes to 3D rendering" :)

What I meant is that if you have a 3D heavy game/demo, the biggest gain will come from skipping the C2P process + faster bus. As soon as you start using its enhanced resolutions, SuperVidel's advantages start disappearing because it will be simply too much for the poor 060. Once I tried running Quake in C2P-less 640x480@8-bit, it was just crawling.

I just wanted to note it, when I saw that "hey, why there is not much software using SuperVidel". That software is fine as it is, with a few lines of code to skip C2P and write to SV memory (0xA0xxxxxx) instead of ST-RAM.


If I were to roughly estimate, a game like Quake will spend 80% time or so rendering the 3D world and 20% doing the chunky2planar conversion (includes copying to ST-RAM).

The SuperVidel will only accelerate those 20% of the game. The c2p is very optimized and will use the same time as a regular memory copy. What remain to be gained for SuperVidel is the speed difference of a 64k memory copy TT-RAM to ST-RAM and TT-RAM to SV-RAM.
In Quake, it's close to negligible visible difference.

Apart from Natures own games that are using SuperVidel blitter it's only GEM/VDI compatible things that will stand out from a regular Videl. Personally I think this is the killer feature of the card, Falcon-compatible truecolour, highres and fast - PeP did a great job using NVDI drivers instead of fVDI. Oh, the Svetlana ethernet isn't bad either ;-)

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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby leech » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:48 pm

@Shoggoth
That's right, been a while since we were going back and forth about that, forgot it was NVDI that qas the issue.
Ha, would love to do DTP on a Afalcon in 4k with the monitor rotated, though I think the SV maxes out at 1920x1080 (probably not due to anything other than it using DVI/VGA). Actually I may have to check again if I ever got it to 1920x1200...
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby joska » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:02 pm

shoggoth wrote:Screen rotation could be achieved with some work using the TOS VDI, but I'm fairly confident that it's more or less impossible/hellish to achieve this on the NVDI driver side.


Such a solution will work with virtually no software that does anything else than outputting text. OTOH if the SuperVidel itself rendered the framebuffer +/-90 degrees it would be just another resolution on the software side. 1200x1920 would be awesome for coding :)
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Re: New SuperVidel & some ideas for future development.

Postby guibrush » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:18 pm

Does anyone know if the supervidel is still in developpement by Willy ? is there a way to contact him to have any ETA ?


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