68080 Apollo Core

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68080 Apollo Core

Postby elliot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 pm

Would this work in a CT60?

http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Orion_ » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:30 pm

the Vampire V4 stand alone card is basically aimed to replace Falcon + CT60, and be faster.
it's even faster than a firebee http://kronos.lutece.net/V4/V4_comparison.pdf
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:55 pm

Orion_ wrote:the Vampire V4 stand alone card is basically aimed to replace Falcon + CT60, and be faster.
it's even faster than a firebee http://kronos.lutece.net/V4/V4_comparison.pdf

I dont see Vampire V4 stand alone as Falcon replacement as it will be without DSP and some other peripheral. It will be yet another Atari clone.
Regarding CPU it is not faster as the FireBee but it has really fast memory access.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:04 pm

vido wrote:Regarding CPU it is not faster as the FireBee but it has really fast memory access.

unfortunately Firebee has very slow video ram access.

IMO the main Vampire's cons is lack of Atari hardware support (besides ST compatible video interlave bitplanes). Therefore there is no way to run any ST demo, game or software which touch a hardware.


this is the latest Vampire figures:
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Atari OS Benchmark On Vampire V4 Standalone
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby OL » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:12 pm

Apollo core is far faster than firebee for near for all, if you use only register as frequency is higher coldfire will run faster but no software work like this! Nobody can explain why memory is so slow on firebee.

vido wrote:
Orion_ wrote:the Vampire V4 stand alone card is basically aimed to replace Falcon + CT60, and be faster.
it's even faster than a firebee http://kronos.lutece.net/V4/V4_comparison.pdf

I dont see Vampire V4 stand alone as Falcon replacement as it will be without DSP and some other peripheral. It will be yet another Atari clone.
Regarding CPU it is not faster as the FireBee but it has really fast memory access.
OL

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby OL » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:17 pm

True and wrong

Just for information already video format of ST are already support by the card, need just add this support in Emutos, now it's true access to hardware register directly will never work for the moment and I think Apollo team has already enough work on Amiga side to not support Atari hardware.

Olivier


Cyprian wrote:
vido wrote:Regarding CPU it is not faster as the FireBee but it has really fast memory access.

unfortunately Firebee has very slow video ram access.

IMO the main Vampire's cons is lack of Atari hardware support (besides ST compatible video interlave bitplanes). Therefore there is no way to run any ST demo, game or software which touch a hardware.


this is the latest Vampire figures:
Image

Atari OS Benchmark On Vampire V4 Standalone
OL

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:26 pm

OL wrote:True and wrong

Just for information already video format of ST are already support by the card, need just add this support in Emutos, now it's true access to hardware register directly will never work for the moment and I think Apollo team has already enough work on Amiga side to not support Atari hardware.

Olivier


I wish Vampire team will be open for adding Atari support in the future by third party developers.

To be honest we need full Atari support. We would like to watch Atari demos, Atari games and use software which touch hardware directly.

Unfortunately at that moment there is no difference between Vampire with EmuTOS and WinUAE with EmuTOS.


But anyway I'm going to buy one
Last edited by Cyprian on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Rustynutt » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:40 pm

Why is ST video so important here?
This is in the Falcon group, more specifically in the CT60 area?
Years were spent developing the SuperVidel, arguably in the top 5 of all hardware ever produced for any Atari. ST video mode? Give me a break.
If going after the Falcon, cut to the chase.
EmuTos...... Hardly an accomplishment. Like saying it can run Mule.
I'm all for hardware development, the Falcon and Vampire seem world's apart.
Then I'm not an avid emulation user, even if it "runs" on a platform 100 times faster.
The real world benefit is soon lost.

In this forum, I'd say the "long journey" thread, and Falcon motherboard project a much more viable alternative. Like said above, the Amiga developers already have enough interest without the Atari community. Any effort on their part would likely be more of sourcing that side of the project over to a few in the Atari community.
Not to many here to "boldly go where no one has gone before", and would definitely support a backward compatible project over on using Roger and others fantastic contribution to the TOS world as a basis for an "O/S".
Even by comparison standards.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:44 pm

Rustynutt wrote:Why is ST video so important here?

by Atari hardware I mean ST/TT/Falcon compatible (full HW, not only SHIFTER), not only ST hardware.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby penguin » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:14 pm

Cyprian wrote:To be honest we need full Atari support. We would like to watch Atari demos, Atari games and use software which touch hardware directly.


Who is "we"? Unless you load a full re-implementation of the Atari ST/E including the original TOS, you'll never have "full Atari support". There are still plenty of original Ataris around to play with plus a few hardware projects (new Falcon and ST/E motherboard). Apollo is another option for those who want higher speed and better graphics.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:39 pm

penguin wrote:Apollo is another option for those who want higher speed and better graphics.


Vampire is compatible with A500 and A1200 on hardware level. There are a lot of A1200 demos run on Vampire.

Would be cool to have the same compatibility level with ST/TT/Falcon


penguin wrote:Who is "we"?

people who would like to use Atari application and also which likes Atari Demoscene.
Lynx II / Jaguar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Rajah Lone » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:36 pm

OL wrote:Nobody can explain why memory is so slow on firebee.

"Flexbus" : main memory (ST-RAM and TT-RAM) is located in the 512 MB RAM of the ColdFire domain, video memory is in the FPGA domain. So rasters move in a bottleneck named flexbus. Effect is similar to the 030/Videl/ST-RAM of the Falcon.
This behavior may be different if a Radeon video card is attached to the FireBee's PCI, or if the firmware has been upgraded and fixed (some news on firebee.org -> Q1 2019).

As for the Vampire V4 standalone with Atari software: works now as a GEM/FreeMiNT Atari clone at least, but if a FPGA coder is capable enough to add Falcon's features...
Some youtube videos shows Vampire V4 that replaces the 68K of an old ST. So customs chips are still there.

So everything is possible if there is enough people to buy and support this hardware.

And I'm tired to read about compatibility complaints. It's always possible to write new applications and demos for new/evolved hardware. If you want to continue to use old applications and demos from the graveyard, get a PC and launch Hatari.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:22 am

Cyprian wrote:Vampire is compatible with A500 and A1200 on hardware level. There are a lot of A1200 demos run on Vampire.

Would be cool to have the same compatibility level with ST/TT/Falcon

penguin wrote:Who is "we"?

people who would like to use Atari application and also which likes Atari Demoscene.

I really dont get that. I want faster Atari clone to run GEM productivity software like internet browser, text editors, ...
For the compatibility I have Falcon. I dont know any other computer mor compatible with the Falcon as Falcon is! Even if you change only CPU frequency of the Falcon you lost some degree of the compatibility. Not to mention other things. For the ST software I have MiST.

And I don't get another thing. There is a FireBee project which is 100% open project so any one can change/add FPGA firmware or software, change software, (add MiST to the FireBee FPGA for ST compatibility, ...) but almost nobody of the developers care about that.

Now there is a closed comercial Amiga project caring mostly about Amiga comunity but people would like to have new Falcon clone. Nothing wrong with that! I like this project. Probably I will buy stand alone. But FireBee has much more potential as any one who is interested can contribute or even produce it.
Last edited by vido on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby ctirad » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:31 am

And I don't get another thing. There is a FireBee project which is 100% open project so any one can change/add FPGA firmware or software, change software, (add MiST to the FireBee FPGA for TS compatibility, ...) but almost nobody of the developers care about that.


Excatly.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:39 am

Rajah Lone wrote:And I'm tired to read about compatibility complaints.

pls don't mix complains with wishes
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:49 am

ctirad wrote:
And I don't get another thing. There is a FireBee project which is 100% open project so any one can change/add FPGA firmware or software, change software, (add MiST to the FireBee FPGA for TS compatibility, ...) but almost nobody of the developers care about that.


Excatly.

I have to add that there are some software developers which supports FireBee!!! There is a BIG thank you to them for that!!!
FPGA developers are mostly needed (as for the Apollo project) .

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby mikro » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:43 am

vido wrote:And I don't get another thing. There is a FireBee project which is 100% open project so any one can change/add FPGA firmware or software, change software, (add MiST to the FireBee FPGA for ST compatibility, ...) but almost nobody of the developers care about that.

Now there is a closed comercial Amiga project caring mostly about Amiga comunity but people would like to have new Falcon clone.

Very precise observation. Whether we (or Mathias ;)) like it or not, it's about the marketing, hype etc. Even in our small world. ACP/FireBee had its share of hype and (un)realistic expectations around the time of its inception, when many active (and now retired) people promised and/or already worked for the project, there wasn't a person who hadn't heard about the ACP back then. Currently, the situation is vastly different, much less people are aware of what the FireBee is, should be and could be.

On the other hand, we have cool videos, benchmarks beating the 060 on all fronts, updates from the Apollo guys, the Vampire card for the ST, so naturally it attracts attention and everybody is focused on this new toy.

Personally, I will buy only a device which allows me to replace my Falcon (hi mpattonm ;)), nothing else. I'm happy with using Aranym for GEM/performance-critical tasks because that is what it was made for.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby joska » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:21 am

The Vampire project is currently of very little interest to me for two reasons:

1. It does not have a 68k compatible MMU, so no memory protection when using MiNT. May or may not be fixed in MiNT at some point.
2. It's a new "Atari", not really compatible with any existing hardware.

So basically it's like a faster Milan (which I have), but without memory protection. And I need memory protection, but not more speed. And what about games or demos? There's an active demoscene and a lot of games running on the CT60 (which I also have), I don't see that happen on the Vampire when it never happened on Hades, Milan or Firebee.

The Vampire in it's current version is simply a machine for running GEM applications really fast. But GEM applications are not limited by speed, they are limited by the OS. Buying a Vampire is like buying a slightly faster Firebee (which I have). And I've stopped using my Firebee for the exact same reasons as why I'm not interested in the Vampire.

If the "68080" eventually gets a proper 68k MMU (or "68080" MMU gets supported by MiNT) it would be a more interesting machine to me. It could then replace my Milan as my main Atari.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:19 am

vido wrote:And I don't get another thing. There is a FireBee project which is 100% open project so any one can change/add FPGA firmware or software, change software, (add MiST to the FireBee FPGA for ST compatibility, ...) but almost nobody of the developers care about that.


how many FPGa developers have Firebee?
IMO Vampire has much wider (tens/hundred) target audience.

I really like Firebee but unfortunately my budget isn't enough for it.

vido wrote:Now there is a closed comercial Amiga project caring mostly about Amiga comunity but people would like to have new Falcon clone.

not exactly.
closed commercial project - true, currently focused on Amiga - true, but the authors are open minded and IMO there is an opportunity to convince them somehow to open a bit more for Atari community.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:56 pm

I agree almost 100% to mikro and joska opinion about the FireBee and Apollo project.

Cyprian wrote:how many FPGa developers have Firebee?

As it is an open project we can say almost unlimited. It is only a question how many of them are active?
I know there are some developers interested into the project but what will come out of it?!? ... Something eventualy :)

Cyprian wrote:IMO Vampire has much wider (tens/hundred) target audience.

Based on what if you think about Atari audience?
For the Amiga audience for sure as this will be their first computer clone :)

Cyprian wrote:I really like Firebee but unfortunately my budget isn't enough for it.

What is your budget? How much cheaper Vampire will be?

Cyprian wrote:
vido wrote:Now there is a closed comercial Amiga project caring mostly about Amiga comunity but people would like to have new Falcon clone.

not exactly.
closed commercial project - true, currently focused on Amiga - true, but the authors are open minded and IMO there is an opportunity to convince them somehow to open a bit more for Atari community.

If they are so open minded then they also can contribute to the FireBee project? For now they are money minded ;)
As I see you can convince them with the money or if you are ready to develop for them for free so they can earn some more money :)

Nothing wrong with that ... just sayin ... :)

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby joska » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:11 pm

If I had to choose between the Vampire and Firebee I would choose the Vampire. It's a simpler and more flexible design without the limitations of the Firebee.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby PeterS » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:52 pm

I suppose it depends on which Ataris you have been using.

I had an ST and then a Milan. The Milan doesn't run ST games and the like and I never bothered with demos. So the option of a machine 2-3x faster and with a similar compatibility as the Milan sounds good.

I think the Vampire's lack of an MMU is the real blocker for Mint power users looking to upgrade.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:01 pm

joska wrote:If I had to choose between the Vampire and Firebee I would choose the Vampire. It's a simpler and more flexible design without the limitations of the Firebee.

I agree. But that doesnt mean the next serie of the FireBee should stay in such form as it is. Maybe Fredi would made simpler version of the FireBee?

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Rajah Lone » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:13 pm

Cyprian wrote:closed commercial project - true, currently focused on Amiga - true, but the authors are open minded and IMO there is an opportunity to convince them somehow to open a bit more for Atari community.

At start, it was homebrew. And became commercial when Amiga users asked for more cards, with industry quality-quantity and "CE" label. People complains about the relative high prices, but it's the prices for small productions. I don't think the Apollo Team is making benefits or earn a salary with it.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby OL » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:57 pm

Just for information the Apollo team has modified an Atari emulator (StonAmiga) for Amiga using directly Atari GFX format, that's help a lot emulation not needing translate video and running in full screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJHSDnRH3AU

Cyprian wrote:
OL wrote:True and wrong

Just for information already video format of ST are already support by the card, need just add this support in Emutos, now it's true access to hardware register directly will never work for the moment and I think Apollo team has already enough work on Amiga side to not support Atari hardware.

Olivier


I wish Vampire team will be open for adding Atari support in the future by third party developers.

To be honest we need full Atari support. We would like to watch Atari demos, Atari games and use software which touch hardware directly.

Unfortunately at that moment there is no difference between Vampire with EmuTOS and WinUAE with EmuTOS.


But anyway I'm going to buy one
OL


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