FX CAST TOS versions

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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby JimDrew » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:01 pm

ijor wrote:As thgill is saying, and for maximum compatibility, currently it has Uk 1.0 builtin. In a future release you would be able to choose whatever TOS you want (and provide).


Ok, then this makes sense why there are compatibility problems during my testing. There are a LOT of games and utilities that require TOS2.04. In fact, most games I have tested do not boot, likely because of this. I will hold off testing until externally loaded ROMs are possible.
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby ijor » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:20 pm

JimDrew wrote:Ok, then this makes sense why there are compatibility problems during my testing. There are a LOT of games and utilities that require TOS2.04. In fact, most games I have tested do not boot, likely because of this.


Jim, please stop spreading wrong information.

In first place, TOS 2.04 (AFAIK) doesn't exist, I assume you mean TOS 2.06. I'm not sure there is even a single commercial game that requires TOS 2.x. Certainly not LOT of games, no way.

You are the first to complain that many games don't boot. Please name some of the titles you are testing. Ideally with a link to the specific version of the game you are trying.
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby BBond007 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:44 pm

JimDrew wrote: In fact, most games I have tested do not boot, likely because of this.

You sure you are running stuff intended for ST and not the STE?

I have found FX CAST to be extremely compatible with the ".ST" games and demos in the Atari ST TOSEC - as long as I'm not mistakenly running something intended for the STE.

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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby JimDrew » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:47 am

Ack... yeah, I meant 2.06 (AmigaDOS is 2.04). :)

I will put together a list of programs that don't run. You do know there should be a list here in the main forums of programs that *require* TOS2.06? What drives me nuts is that there are lot of programs that also *require* TOS1.02 (like Audio Sculpture). I believe that the STeeM threads have a list of those. I ran into that when initially testing the SCP support for STeeM.

I ran a ton of Euro-demos with the core and it seems to work perfectly, but I only personally run NTSC/U.S. games and utilities on my 520/1040 machines.
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby troed » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:06 am

JimDrew wrote:What drives me nuts is that there are lot of programs that also *require* TOS1.02 (like Audio Sculpture)


It most definitely does not. However, AS' copy protection for all released versions was done before TOS 2.06 came out and so does not work on that specific version (the cracked version I released recently does however). Previous TOS versions all work fine with AS though - no specific one needed.

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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby JimDrew » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:13 pm

I have Audio Sculpture and it doesn't load on a real machine with TOS2.06, but it does load on a real machine with TOS1.02. This is also the case for STeeM and Hatari. It seems there many different programs that relied either on TOS1.02 or TOS2.06. I am not an Atari expert by any means, so i don't know what changes in TOS would cause this other than some coder jumping directly into TOS routines that might have been changed or moved between the revisions.

::edit:: I went back and looked at the Audio Sculpture thread (which Ijor was a big part of) and found this:

The uncracked version does patch TOS as part of its protection and that's the reason why it's not working on TOS 2.06 (came out later).


I don't use "cracked" anything, which is why I am looking forward to the SCP support in this core. :)
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby troed » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:42 pm

JimDrew wrote:I have Audio Sculpture and it doesn't load on a real machine with TOS2.06, but it does load on a real machine with TOS1.02.


As I wrote, it doesn't work on TOS 2.06. It works on all lower TOS versions. Your statement was that it *required* v1.02.

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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:45 am

OK, thanks for clarifying. As far as I know the U.S. market only had machines with TOS1.02 and TOS2.06. I am not aware of any other version (like TOS1.6) that was actually available here. My point in this is that there are programs that require certain versions of TOS in order to function. Some require TOS2.06, and some won't work with it.
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby ijor » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:16 pm

JimDrew wrote:You do know there should be a list here in the main forums of programs that *require* TOS2.06?
...
As far as I know the U.S. market only had machines with TOS1.02 and TOS2.06. I am not aware of any other version (like TOS1.6) that was actually available here. ... Some require TOS2.06, and some won't work with it.


You are completely wrong again in almost everything you say. And honestly, I am getting tired to correct you.

... but I only personally run NTSC/U.S. games and utilities on my 520/1040 machines.


That's a different issue than TOS version. There are a few titles that require 60Hz (not exactly the same as US TOS), such as the US version of Spectrum 512. There are also a handful of region locked games.

I don't use "cracked" anything, which is why I am looking forward to the SCP support in this core. :)


Watch your PM, I will send you later a core version with SCP support.
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Thanks, I will watch my PM for SCP support!

I have tinkered with the Atari ST stuff since they were released. I have 6 different real machines here with mono and color monitors (and thousands of original disks). One machine has TOS1.02 and the rest have TOS2.06. There is no TOS version in between. I have original disks that work on one TOS and not the other. I have also confirmed this same behaivor with STeeM and Hatari. Can this really be an NTSC issue? You know Audio Sculpture well. That program refuses to run on TOS2.06 with real machines or emulated machines. Is that an NTSC issue or a TOS issue?

When I google this issue, I see numerous comments like the one below all over the internet. I think I am going to get a ROM switcher for a couple of my real machines.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/273251 ... ?p=3914788
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby AnthonyJ » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:40 pm

JimDrew wrote:I have tinkered with the Atari ST stuff since they were released.


I guess over the years you’ve forgotten a few things... TOS 1.00 was the original version, while later STFMs shipped with 1.02 and then 1.04. TOS 1.6 / 1.62 were the STE versions, TOS 2.05 / 2.06 were Mega STE versions. 2.06 was also made available as after market upgrades for the earlier models since it made things nicer in the desktop so was good for productivity users, or those with other hardware upgrades - but as you have seen, added compatibility issues, so people wanted to retain their 1.x version as well.

Differences between 1.00 and 1.04 (last STFM version) are minimal and usually don’t cause any issues (truly ancient software might not run on 1.04 but would work on 1.00 if they did naughty things before 1.04 was released).

Basically, by putting in 1.00, the most compatible version is already there.

(For completeness, TOS 3.xx was the same as 2.xx but built for the TT and TOS 4.xx was for the Falcon).

All of the above versions were available in the US (and UK, DE etc) versions.

NTSC vs PAL refresh rate is an entirely separate issue.

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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby troed » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:13 pm

JimDrew wrote:You know Audio Sculpture well. That program refuses to run on TOS2.06 with real machines or emulated machines. Is that an NTSC issue or a TOS issue?


As I've already written, the copy protection in all released versions of AS was written before the release of TOS 2.06. Part of that protection runs TOS code and has thus the offsets needed for each TOS version included in the code. For TOS 2.06 that offset is wrong and the code crashes. There's nothing in TOS 2.06 it "requires".

As for which versions of ST(E) TOS which were available in the US, that list is: v1.00, v1.02, v1.04, v1.60, v1.62, v2.05, v2.06

/Troed - member of SYNC, the authors of Audio Sculpture (although I'm not one of the actual coders who did it), and who did crack the latest available version partly so that there would be a version which works on 2.06 ...

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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby JimDrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:29 am

AnthonyJ wrote:I guess over the years you’ve forgotten a few things...


No, when it comes to the Atari I am as dumb as a post. :) I am a Commodore person. I got my first ST to play Starglider. :) I got rid of it about 10 years ago or so, and then when I created SuperCard Pro I had to get another machine (and both monitors) to test disks. Because of Audio Sculpture I ended up buying 5 other ST machines trying to find one with TOS1.02 because that works in STeeM with Audio Sculpture, where TOS2.06 does not and I wanted to see if that was the case also with a real machine (which it is).


troed wrote:There's nothing in TOS 2.06 it "requires".


That may be the case, however, the original program (original disk) will not work on a machine with TOS2.06. Since I only work with original disks, that is all that matters to me. I have sent off an email to Darrek (author of Gemulator) to ask him if he has a list of programs that are not cross-TOS compatible.
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FX CAST TOS versions

Postby ijor » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:56 am

This is a split from the main FX CAST for MiSTer thread: viewtopic.php?f=117&t=34555
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby ijor » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:10 am

JimDrew wrote:
troed wrote:There's nothing in TOS 2.06 it "requires".


That may be the case, however, the original program (original disk) will not work on a machine with TOS2.06. Since I only work with original disks, that is all that matters to me.


You are not "listening" (well, reading) to what we are trying to tell you. Of course that many programs do not work with TOS 2.06. But NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! (and sorry if I am shouting :) )

As a matter of fact, I don't recall not even a single program that requires versions 2.06. No ST (pre STE) machine ever shipped with TOS 2.x fitted from factory, only later models did. Furthermore, you can't even fit TOS 2.X on an ST (again, pre STE) machine without applying a hardware mod because the TOS size is different.

So to recap. There is an issue of TOS version cross compatibility. But as a general rule, the older the TOS version the more compatible it is. This is for obvious reasons. Older software couldn't be tested with newer TOS versions. But newer software was usually tested with all the TOS versions available at the time it was released. There are a few, very few, titles that require TOS 1.02 or 1.04 and do not run with TOS 1.0, but they are very few. And again, I don't think there is a single commercial game that requires version 2.X and doesn't run on any TOS 1.X version.
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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby JimDrew » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:11 pm

I did understand what you are saying. You believe that in the history of the Atari ST there was never a program ever written that makes calls to TOS2.06 specific routines (which obviously did not exist in TOS1.02). I have disks that won't boot under TOS1.02, but do boot under TOS2.06 (with a real or emulated machine) and i am trying to understand why.
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Re: FX CAST Atari ST core

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:39 pm

ijor wrote:So to recap. There is an issue of TOS version cross compatibility. But as a general rule, the older the TOS version the more compatible it is. This is for obvious reasons. Older software couldn't be tested with newer TOS versions. But newer software was usually tested with all the TOS versions available at the time it was released. There are a few, very few, titles that require TOS 1.02 or 1.04 and do not run with TOS 1.0, but they are very few.


TOS v1.00 is quite buggy, it cannot e.g. deal reliably with hard disks / hard disk images.

Is there somewhere a list of titles that require TOS v1.00, and don't work with v1.02 or v1.04?

I've come across only one (Squixx input works only with TOS v1.00).

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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby JimDrew » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:00 am

That's basically what I am trying to do - compile of list of programs that only work under certain versions of TOS.
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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby ijor » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:41 am

JimDrew wrote:You believe that in the history of the Atari ST there was never a program ever written that makes calls to TOS2.06 specific routines (which obviously did not exist in TOS1.02).


Please read back my post again. I didn't say exactly that, did i?

I have disks that won't boot under TOS1.02, but do boot under TOS2.06 (with a real or emulated machine) and i am trying to understand why.


Well, once again, please tell us which programs you have that you think they require TOS 2.06. And again, please link to a specific version.
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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby ijor » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:51 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:TOS v1.00 is quite buggy, it cannot e.g. deal reliably with hard disks / hard disk images.


I think that is a bit of an overstatement. Yes, it has some bugs. But back at the day, I used TOS 1.0 wit a hard disk for several years without any problems. I had no other choice then. Granted, it was a very small hard disk for today standards, with very few partitions, and I used the tools ICD provided to overcome most TOS bugs. IIRC, the most important one was the limitation on the number of folders?

Is there somewhere a list of titles that require TOS v1.00, and don't work with v1.02 or v1.04? I've come across only one (Squixx input works only with TOS v1.00).


I don't know if there is such a list, but there are several titles. One that comes to mind is Rogue, and any other title with the same protection. Note that the incompatibility is at the protection and more than likely it was removed once it was cracked. So you need to test original copy protected images.
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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby Eero Tamminen » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:37 am

ijor wrote:
Eero Tamminen wrote:TOS v1.00 is quite buggy, it cannot e.g. deal reliably with hard disks / hard disk images.


I think that is a bit of an overstatement. Yes, it has some bugs. But back at the day, I used TOS 1.0 wit a hard disk for several years without any problems. I had no other choice then. Granted, it was a very small hard disk for today standards, with very few partitions, and I used the tools ICD provided to overcome most TOS bugs. IIRC, the most important one was the limitation on the number of folders?


There are fix programs that one can use, and I guess HD driver impacts it too, but I would expect most Mister users not to install such fix programs (it's a long time ago and people don't anymore remember that such things may be needed).

If you e.g. have disk that has been written on Windows and which happens to have directory entries with VFAT style file names (like they easily will unless one remembers to avoid it), instead of the normal FAT file names, old TOS version corrupts the file system when you e.g. copy files (EmuTOS did that too, but that has been fixed many years ago).


ijor wrote:
Is there somewhere a list of titles that require TOS v1.00, and don't work with v1.02 or v1.04? I've come across only one (Squixx input works only with TOS v1.00).


I don't know if there is such a list, but there are several titles. One that comes to mind is Rogue, and any other title with the same protection. Note that the incompatibility is at the protection and more than likely it was removed once it was cracked. So you need to test original copy protected images.


Good point. I've also actually tested more PD/freeware/shareware games i.e. stuff that doesn't have protection, rather than commercial games.

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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby ijor » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:22 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:There are fix programs that one can use, and I guess HD driver impacts it too, but I would expect most Mister users not to install such fix programs (it's a long time ago and people don't anymore remember that such things may be needed).

If you e.g. have disk that has been written on Windows and which happens to have directory entries with VFAT style file names (like they easily will unless one remembers to avoid it), instead of the normal FAT file names, old TOS version corrupts the file system when you e.g. copy files (EmuTOS did that too, but that has been fixed many years ago).


Please realize that this is mostly academic. Users will definitely have the option of choosing whatever TOS they might want. It is not that I'll force you to use TOS 1.0 always, forever :)

Having said that ... I don't understand why you think that it will be common to create hard disk files on Windows. MiSTer cores normally use hard disk file images (what we call ACSI hard disks under emulation). They don't access partitions directly on the SD card. So normally the only way you will access the "disk" outside the core itself, would be under emulation.
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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:09 am

ijor wrote:Having said that ... I don't understand why you think that it will be common to create hard disk files on Windows. MiSTer cores normally use hard disk file images (what we call ACSI hard disks under emulation). They don't access partitions directly on the SD card. So normally the only way you will access the "disk" outside the core itself, would be under emulation.


Sorry, I didn't realize that people start from an empty hard disk image. I add hard disk image content on the host before using it with emulator (I don't have MiST/Mister yet). On Linux there are multiple ways to do that (mounting image with with loop driver, auto-mounting it from an external media like USB stick, copying files with Mtools to the image etc).

Don't MiST/Mister support mouting SD card partitions as hard disk images?

Hatari includes a ready made Linux script (atari-hd-image) for creating a HD image. One should be able to mount it on DOS/Windows after dd'ing it to memory stick / card. And EmuTOS can access them without an HD driver (it supports drives with DOS-style partition table, and raw FAT partitions).

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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby ijor » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:06 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:Don't MiST/Mister support mouting SD card partitions as hard disk images?


MiST does, but MiSTer doesn't. The main difference comes from the fact that MiSTer runs full Linux, and it runs Linux directly from the SD card.

Edit: MiSTer can use a second SD card connected at the optional I/O board, and the core has full direct control of that card. I might add support for this eventually.
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Re: FX CAST TOS versions

Postby paulwratt » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:26 pm

Before coming across this thread, I was just looking through the source code of st_tos.cpp at:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... support/st

and it does support either two hard disks images (via the DE10 sd-card), or one hard disk direct sd-card (via the MiSTer sd-controller).

RE: ROM versions
Here in NZ v1.00 was common in shop (demo) models, 1.04 was most common in 1040 STFM and 1.62 was mostly STE. That is to say I did have some original disks that would not boot on a 1040 STFM with 1.04 - they needed 1.00 or 1.02 - some of them would however boot on a 520 with 1.04 - all mentioned TOS versions are 50Hz.

And people are right, there have been lists in the past that contain version dependencies, I remember reading at least 2 different lists.

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