MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:37 pm

Your understanding is wrong. Auto-refresh is not hidden. HyperRAM has special output signal which shows refresh cycle, so host has to suspend any operations till this signal become inactive again. You cannot control it. You only can wait for it.
It's the same as DDR3 with HW memory controller used on both DE10-nano and Novtech boards. So, you don't need HyperRAM as you already have the similar DRAM with uncontrolled refresh cycles. And this RAM cannot be used in system where precise timings are required.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby ijor » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:51 pm

Sorgelig wrote:Your understanding is wrong. Auto-refresh is not hidden. HyperRAM has special output signal which shows refresh cycle, so host has to suspend any operations till this signal become inactive again. You cannot control it. You only can wait for it.
It's the same as DDR3 with HW memory controller used on both DE10-nano and Novtech boards. So, you don't need HyperRAM as you already have the similar DRAM with uncontrolled refresh cycles. And this RAM cannot be used in system where precise timings are required.


You are right, my bad. But it still might be possible to use it as long as the core can afford a higher latency. Instead of using it directly, that it will require a variable latency, you operate assuming the worst case that a refresh cycle is always needed. Then you get a fixed latency, that of course is longer.

The hard memory controller on the DE-10 SOC is not exactly the same. Not only you have to wait for refresh cycles. In this case you also wait for other clients (such as Linux) accessing the RAM.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:35 pm

You always have to count on worst case scenario if you simulate a precise RAM timings on retro system. It's true that still many systems don't require precise timings so you just need to keep some macro timings. But usually in this case you can simply use DDR3. Even tough you think it's pretty busy by other clients like linux, video scaler - it's still very very fast. It runs on 800MHz. ARM has cache. I'm using DDR3 in Genesis and PCE cores and it works without any problems.
Other cores may use some special tricks depending on implementation. For example, C64 needs a lot of RAM because of cartridge support - and i believe it's possible to use DDR3 for cartridge and simply copy required part of cart memory to BRAM when ROM banks are being switched. It requires some time to implement. But if there is no choice, it's possible.

Another problem with PSRAM/HyperRAM is max of 128MBit per chip. SDRAM used in MIST/MiSTer is 256MBit. So, for compatibility you need to use 2 chips which will give more troubles. PSRAM is actually DDR requiring diff-clock and much cleaner signals to operate.
Currently, i see more troubles than advantages of these PSRAM chips.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby ijor » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:16 am

Sorgelig wrote:Another problem with PSRAM/HyperRAM is max of 128MBit per chip. SDRAM used in MIST/MiSTer is 256MBit. So, for compatibility you need to use 2 chips which will give more troubles. PSRAM is actually DDR requiring diff-clock and much cleaner signals to operate.
Currently, i see more troubles than advantages of these PSRAM chips.


I agree, of course. The idea of using something like HyperRAM was for cases when you don't have enough pins to use SDRAM.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby olin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:50 am

It could be a mini-Mister if could be possible to add SDRAM.

Well, why not call it MiniSTer then? :D

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:31 pm

The awaited DE10-Standard edition of MiSTer is ported, tested and re-compiled especially for Altera DE10-Board! :megaphone:

You can continuously find all ready / compiled releases/core.rbf files under this wiki page:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard/Main_MiSTer/wiki

Please follow the guide carefully on the DE10-Standard MiSTer Wiki:
1. You need to set the dip switches on the board to the position shown on the wiki pic - different than the DE10-Nano!
2. You have to have Micro SD card for the project (no others needed, 64mb ram and vga output on the board)
3. Download SD-Installer-Win64_MiSTer latest release and install to the SD Card
4. Configure /media/fat/config/MiSTer.ini
5. Download Menu_Mister (Boot Menu) and copy to the memory card / overwrite existing menu.rbf file
6. Download the wished DE10-standard compatible Cores and copy to the memory card partition

The DE10-Standard project brought to you by http://modernhackers.com - enjoy, because MiSTer is a cool project by Sorgelig! :cheers:

Working towards on of porting and testing more cores and the next supported board will be DE1-SocKit.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby ijor » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:13 pm

mazsola2k wrote:The awaited DE10-Standard edition of MiSTer is ported, tested and re-compiled especially for Altera DE10-Board! :megaphone:


Great news! I have a DE10-Standard now. Would try some cores and port FX CAST as soon as I would have some time.

I like this board a lot. Unfortunately the DE10-Standard lacks HDMI, but the FPGA device itself is a faster speed grade. It also has a PS/2 connector which might be useful for those low latency extreme fans :) The small integrated LCD is also useful for debug and diagnostic.
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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:25 pm

mazsola2k wrote:The awaited DE10-Standard edition of MiSTer is ported, tested and re-compiled especially for Altera DE10-Board!

since it's a port of MiSTer, not MiST, the following text quite misleading:
Due to a larger FPGA, bigger systems can be created. It's also possible to add more support from ARM side. For example TZX tape format can be parsed on ARM and then send to FPGA. Firmware is not limited by code size or available RAM. It'e even possible to emulate some parts of system on ARM which is not available in FPGA (so-called hybrid emulator).

FPGA chip and ARM part are equal to DE10-nano.
This text on my Wiki is about upgrading from MiST to MiSTer.

ijor wrote:but the FPGA device itself is a faster speed grade

it's arguable. FPGA on DE10-nano has industrial grade which give guaranties of more stability on wider temperatures range. So, with tend to heat of FPGA chip this -6 grade against -7I is not a real advantage.
Btw, there is no Altera/Intel documents saying what exactly this number means besides that 6 is less than 7. It's not like SDRAM chip where -6 and -7 means particular delay in datasheet. In FPGA it's more hypothetical than real difference.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:27 pm

ijor wrote:Unfortunately the DE10-Standard lacks HDMI

say hello to MiST :)
After having GX Starter Kit with the same board size and HDMI, it's really weird to see a newer board with going back to old VGA output...

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:32 pm

Generally speaking DE10-standard is not a bad board and it's more convenient for debugging.
The stopper here is the price. With $350 it's better to make a custom board which will include all required components.

I don't like Xilinx FPGA but with $350 price tag they have a good Ultrascale+ based board which is much more powerful with tons of on-chip RAM, with GPU.

But regardless the functionality i think there is a hard top price around $200. Everything above is going to be marginal with only few users.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Newsdee » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:17 pm

I second that, there's quite a few FPGA devices at slightly less than $200, like the newer Analogues and the RetroUSB AVS, amd those are "end user" products with plastic molded cases. Hard to compete with a bare hobbist board at a higher price than that.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby high5 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:42 pm

Just my personal opinion, if someone other than Sorgelig would like to port MiSTer to DE10-Standard it would be great to broaden MiSTer platforms. Else I would tend to focus development resources on the most common platform (nano).

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby ijor » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:34 am

Sorgelig wrote:say hello to MiST :)
After having GX Starter Kit with the same board size and HDMI, it's really weird to see a newer board with going back to old VGA output...


Yeah, it's a pitty. I suspect the reason is that Terasic wanted to continue the concept of the old DE-1/2 educational boards with several legacy peripherals that can "easily" be implemented on a FPGA core. But yes, it's a shame. It is possible to add an HDMI board at the high speed connector. But this will increase the cost even more!

it's arguable. FPGA on DE10-nano has industrial grade which give guaranties of more stability on wider temperatures range. So, with tend to heat of FPGA chip this -6 grade against -7I is not a real advantage.
Btw, there is no Altera/Intel documents saying what exactly this number means besides that 6 is less than 7. It's not like SDRAM chip where -6 and -7 means particular delay in datasheet. In FPGA it's more hypothetical than real difference.


The advantadge of the industrial grade is only relevant if the board and the device heats outside of the normal temperature range. But the DE-10 Standard doesn't have, not nearly, the heating issues that we see on the DE10-nano. And this is likely the reason that Terasic used the industrial grade on the nano in the first place.

The difference in speed grade is not hypothetical at all. The datasheet doesn't cover all the timing parameters because that would be impossible, they are too many. Contrary to other chips that might have just a handful or a dozen timing parameters, a FPGA might have hundreds.

But there are performance spreadsheets available. And you can see the actual performance using timing analysis. Compile just about any core, once with one speed grande and another time with a different speed grade, and you will see a considerable difference in the result.

I'm pretty sure that ao486 can run faster on the DE10-Standard.

Generally speaking DE10-standard is not a bad board and it's more convenient for debugging.
The stopper here is the price. With $350 it's better to make a custom board which will include all required components.


I think we all agree with that. But the "MiSTer" port to the DE-10 standard doesn't harm. As somebody just said, at least not as long as most of the work is done by somebody else. :)
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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:10 pm

You can download the following ported and tested DE10-Standard Cores of MiSTer: :megaphone:

https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard ... iSTer/wiki
ao486
Commodore 64, Ultimax
Genesis, Megadrive
Minimig-AGA_MiSTer
SNES_MiSTer

Enjoy! :cheers:

More DE10-Standard Cores and DE1-SoC Port on it's way.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Lroby74 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:55 pm

<removed due to ads of non-open source solution> (Sorgelig)

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:26 pm


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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:53 am

NeoGeo Core ported to DE10-Standard and DE1-SoC FPGA :megaphone:

http://modernhackers.com/neogeo-ported-to-de10-standard-and-de1-soc-fpga/

DE10-Standard Download Links:

Menu MiSTer for DE10-Standard (latest release necessary for NeoGeo)
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard/Menu_MiSTer
Main MiSTer for DE10-Standard (latest release necessary for NeoGeo)
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard/Main_MiSTer
or Install the latest SD Card Installer which contains the latest menu and main:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard ... n64_MiSTer
NeoGeo Core for DE10-Standard:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard/NeoGeo_MiSTer

DE1-SoC Download Links:

Menu MiSTer for DE1-SoC (latest release necessary for NeoGeo)
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/Menu_MiSTer
Main MiSTer for DE1-SoC (latest release necessary for NeoGeo)
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/Main_MiSTer
or Install the latest SD Card Installer which contains the latest menu and main:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/SD-In ... n64_MiSTer
NeoGeo Core for DE1-SoC
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/NeoGeo_MiSTer

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Newsdee » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:53 pm

Cool! It's great to have more options!

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby liang » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:57 pm

Great Works ! mazsola2k

looks DE-1Soc is a good alternative

$200
85K LE (smaller than de10nano's 110K)
64MB sdrom,2USB ports on board

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby crocky » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:42 am

Apart from the cores never being updated after the initial port, it doesn't have proper scaling. People who aren't aware of the original project will lets say not be impressed. Good chance of spreading misinformation. Hopefully there is a disclaimer in the beginning of each core that mentions the limitations of these ports.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:10 pm

The Goal of the ports is to deliver MiSTer to board owners who already owning DE10-Standard/DE1-Soc/Arrow SoCKit - not competing with mainstream MiSTer builds.

Announcement - MiSTer Menu and Genesis MiSTer Core ported to Arrow SoCKit FPGA :megaphone:

http://modernhackers.com/porting-mister ... ckit-fpga/

Howto Configure your Arrow SoCKit board:
https://github.com/MiSTer-Arrow-SoCKit/Main_MiSTer/wiki

Arrow SoCkit Download Links:

Apple 1 MiSTer Core for DE10-Standard FPGA Board Download:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard/Apple-I_MiSTer

Apple 1 MiSTer Core for DE1-SoC FPGA Board Download:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/Apple-I_MiSTer

Apple 1 MiSTer Core for Arrow-SoCKit FPGA Board Download:
https://github.com/MiSTer-Arrow-SoCKit/Apple-I_MiSTer
Last edited by mazsola2k on Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby Newsdee » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:07 pm

These boards do not have HDMI, so it should be no surprise that they lack ASCAL (the upscaler).

I believe these ports are very valuable to set the base for further changes, and hopefully allow people who own these boards to discover and maybe even contribute to future MiSTer development. As long as the code is open, we all win.

Now if only Terasic would make a board with HDMI, 128MB+ SDRAM, and all ports facing one side... that would be very popular here :D

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:35 am

Apple 1 Core Ported to DE10-Standard / DE1-SoC and Arrow SoCKit - :megaphone: - enjoy
http://modernhackers.com/apple-1-on-de1 ... ckit-fpga/

Apple 1 MiSTer Core for DE10-Standard FPGA Board:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard/Apple-I_MiSTer

Apple 1 MiSTer Core for DE1-SoC FPGA Board:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/Apple-I_MiSTer

Apple 1 MiSTer Core for Arrow-SoCKit FPGA Board:
https://github.com/MiSTer-Arrow-SoCKit/Apple-I_MiSTer

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 am

Newsdee wrote:These boards do not have HDMI, so it should be no surprise that they lack ASCAL (the upscaler).

I believe these ports are very valuable to set the base for further changes, and hopefully allow people who own these boards to discover and maybe even contribute to future MiSTer development. As long as the code is open, we all win.

Now if only Terasic would make a board with HDMI, 128MB+ SDRAM, and all ports facing one side... that would be very popular here :D


regarding hdmi vs vga: even these boards equipped as vga only - because intended for reasearch and development purpose and not primarily for gaming, but they can operate in vga mode with fullhd, you can specify in mister.ini to 8 - to get fullhd:

; 8 - 1920x1080@60
video_mode=8

regarding target audience: exactly, huge number of University members around with having access to DE10-Standard/ DE1-Soc / Arrow SoCKit boards, who can now enjoy to use/try and test MiSTer and they can contribute/develop newer cores/builds also in DE10-Nano mainstream as well.

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Re: MiSTer on DE10-Standard - needed?

Postby mazsola2k » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:38 pm

Atari 2600 MiSTer core ported to DE10-Standard, DE1-Soc and Arrow SoCKit FPGA-s :megaphone:
http://modernhackers.com/atari-2600-on- ... ckit-fpga/

Atari 2600 MiSTer Core for DE10-Standard FPGA:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE10-Standard ... 600_MiSTer

Atari 2600 MiSTer Core for DE1-SoC FPGA:
https://github.com/MiSTer-DE1-SoC/Atari2600_MiSTer

Atari 2600 MiSTer Core for Arrow SoCKit FPGA:
https://github.com/MiSTer-Arrow-SoCKit/Atari2600_MiSTer


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