Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

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Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:18 am

So I was thinking about that serial / wireless device that was discussed a while back for adding Wifi to anything with a serial port. With the anoyance I am having with trying to get my NFS share working, I was pondering if this would be possible. Basically what I am thinking is a device that is powered by the IDE cable but has an embedded OS in it with a wireless chip that you can configure a simple nfs mount and it would act as a hard drive. Wireless technology itself is faster than the drive throughput in older computers.

I do see one terrible side affect of this could be that the wifi dies in the middle of a write operation, but I don't think that will corrupt the mounted file system anyhow. Transferring files to our Atari's at that point would be as easy as copying a file over to the exported dir.

This would also make it dead simple to make backups of your system, or have it on a RAID array.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:08 am

I think that it could be combined into CosmosEx.
Using ACSI port with DMA is better than IDE considering less slowdowns when data transfer is active + you don't need to open machine that it works.
There was cartridge port adapter for LAN too - so could do WiFi variant of it.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby Cyprian » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:57 pm

AtariZoll wrote:I think that it could be combined into CosmosEx.

actually this exactly what CosmosEx does - uses WiFI and ACSI DMA for RAW,GEM, SMB file systems

Anima wrote:Something like the NetPi-IDE?

that looks cool
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:44 pm

Yeah, I was thinking the CosmosEX should be able to do something like that, just wasn't sure if it could.

But doesn't it allow SMB filesystems, vs it acting like a hard drive transparently to the system, but the data is mounted from elsewhere? Though yes the CosmosEx is a bit better in that it supports ACSI/SCSI (depending on version) vs IDE. I was thinking IDE only because more systems seem to use it (outside of the STs with modification, which by default only the Falcon supports it).

I'm kind of looking for something to replace my SSD IDE drive that I have. Due to the SuperVidel, I had to remove the hard drive holder, so now it's just flopping around in there again.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby Cyprian » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:25 pm

leech wrote:Yeah, I was thinking the CosmosEX should be able to do something like that, just wasn't sure if it could.

But doesn't it allow SMB filesystems, vs it acting like a hard drive transparently to the system, but the data is mounted from elsewhere?


yes, it does :)
It's one of the main CosmosEx feature. You can boot ST from shared folder (NFS / Samba / CIFS / SMB) from your laptop: http://joo.kie.sk/cosmosex/download/Cos ... _Guide.pdf
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:35 pm

Well crap! Guess I'm opening up my old bird and replacing things soon (if not tonight). Been meaning to do it, just didn't want the SCSI cable hanging out the back, but I have other things dangling out now due to the CT60e anyhow (really need to clean that up).

Anyone know if more are being made? I should probably get a second (for the TT).
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby wongck » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:31 pm

Using IDE on an ST would be difficult. ASCI would be better, so it is the CosmosEX.
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby joska » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:26 am

AtariZoll wrote:Using ACSI port with DMA is better than IDE considering less slowdowns when data transfer is active + you don't need to open machine that it works.


True if you have an ST, but if you have a Falcon - like leech does - ACSI is not an option. SCSI would be an option, but in real life IDE is better on the Falcon. Faster transfers (especially on accelerated machines) and much better reliability.
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:59 am

joska wrote:True if you have an ST, but if you have a Falcon - like leech does - ACSI is not an option. SCSI would be an option, but in real life IDE is better on the Falcon. Faster transfers (especially on accelerated machines) and much better reliability.

Thank you very much. I never knew that Falcon has no ACSI port. Never new that IDE is better than SCSI on Falcon ... Does that Falcon have keyboard ? :wink:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby joska » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:01 am

I suspect sarcasm here ;) But yes, IDE gives better performance than SCSI on Falcons, especially on accelerated Falcons.
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:43 am

Well, to be fair, I have just about every ST (though oddly not an original one, at least that is fully working, my 1040STf has something off with it's video, but since I have a 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030 and Falcon, haven't really minded too much...)

Main reason I was asking about IDE is also for other retro systems, which seem to somehow or another support at least IDE.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby Cyprian » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:52 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Thank you very much. I never knew that Falcon has no ACSI port. Never new that IDE is better than SCSI on Falcon ... Does that Falcon have keyboard ? :wink:


actually Falcon's SCSI is better 1) but IDE is faster 2).
1) better because it has DMA channel - therefore read/write operations can be done in the bacground, without CPU activity;
2) faster due to SCSI DMA is limited to max 1.8 ~ 2 MB/s and IDE is limited only by CPU/BUS speed
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:08 pm

So with like a CT60e, it'll run a lot faster? I was amazed at the speed FTP was actually working in 060 mode, vs wget which is just slow as sin. I don't know the TCP/IP stack that much, but is FTP really that much lighter weight than HTTP?
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:40 am

Cyprian wrote:actually Falcon's SCSI is better 1) but IDE is faster 2).
1) better because it has DMA channel - therefore read/write operations can be done in the bacground, without CPU activity;
2) faster due to SCSI DMA is limited to max 1.8 ~ 2 MB/s and IDE is limited only by CPU/BUS speed

Yes, DMA is nice thing. But in real usage, in single task TOS there is no background disk access - SW will wait until disk transfer is finished. So really no use of "without CPU activity" .
SCSI implementation in Falcon is pretty much limited. Not only in speed.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby joska » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:04 am

leech wrote:So with like a CT60e, it'll run a lot faster?


The CT60 itself does not make IDE a "lot" faster, just a little. The Falcon-bus is still a bottleneck. But when you accelerate the Falcon itself to 20 or 25MHz you will notice a substantial increase in IDE speed.

leech wrote:I was amazed at the speed FTP was actually working in 060 mode, vs wget which is just slow as sin. I don't know the TCP/IP stack that much, but is FTP really that much lighter weight than HTTP?


Not really. Litchi is just a lot more efficient than wget. I get around 500kb/s with Litchi on my CT60e with a Hydra ethernet cartridge. My Milan060 with a PCI ethernetcard is not much faster.
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:01 am

I think my NetUSBee topped out at 100 with wget, Litchi just seemed to fly through. Though that could have been due to copying off my NAS in the next room.
Last edited by leech on Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby Cyprian » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:14 am

AtariZoll wrote:
Cyprian wrote:actually Falcon's SCSI is better 1) but IDE is faster 2).
1) better because it has DMA channel - therefore read/write operations can be done in the bacground, without CPU activity;
2) faster due to SCSI DMA is limited to max 1.8 ~ 2 MB/s and IDE is limited only by CPU/BUS speed

Yes, DMA is nice thing. But in real usage, in single task TOS there is no background disk access - SW will wait until disk transfer is finished. So really no use of "without CPU activity" .
SCSI implementation in Falcon is pretty much limited. Not only in speed.


well, the real case under single TOS is that D2D audio applications didn't support IDE port because of lack of DMA.

I usually used MagiC and Geneva and singleTOS only for games and audio D2D
Lynx II / Jaguar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / Lynx Multi Card / LDW Super 2000 / XCA12 / SkunkBoard / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:06 pm

Cyprian wrote:well, the real case under single TOS is that D2D audio applications didn't support IDE port because of lack of DMA.
I usually used MagiC and Geneva and singleTOS only for games and audio D2D

D2D - probably means 'direct to disk' - it has certainly own low level disk driver - then can be in background.
But actually, I think that it could be done with IDE too if audio code is not extremely sensitive for short interrupts. But is certainly harder for coding.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:25 pm

Ah, yes I remember reading with either the Amgia or Atari that Direct to Disk was mostly only achievable via SCSI. In fact almost every Video Toaster system out there had some serious amounts of SCSI thrown at it.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby Cyprian » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:32 pm

yep, it could be done with IDE but we have to reckon with a loss 30~50% of CPU for disk management
Lynx II / Jaguar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / Lynx Multi Card / LDW Super 2000 / XCA12 / SkunkBoard / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
Hatari / Steem SSE / Aranym / Saint
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:27 pm

Now sure what's the impact but
1/ SCSI has a dedicated chip
2/ IDE is using PIO

However, as mentioned already the bandwidth that these method can achieve counts.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63 CTPCI ATI RTL8139 USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby iggydrougge » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:28 am

There already are SD cards with such functionality for photographers who need to upload their photos immediately. They're even cheap.

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby leech » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:23 pm

An SD card with networking? Wow, they actually do exist. I may have to try one of these out somewhere.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (VBXE, U1MB, Stereo POKEY)
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: Weird idea for a possibly cool project. (IDE adapter with embedded wifi/NFS)

Postby wongck » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:06 pm

Yes, SD with WIFI capability, been around for 3-4 years or more.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63 CTPCI ATI RTL8139 USB 512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list


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