MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

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EmpireAndrew
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:43 pm

christos wrote:The average user doesn't really know or care

We can't expect the average user to understand how things work, they just know their phone battery gets sucked up along with their bandwidth allowance, and that they can't quickly check a page at subway stops as the thing takes too long to load.

christos wrote:The social media marketer doesn't care that only 1% of users will use a feature

Herein lies the problem.
What evidence is there that any of this stuff actually increases sales?
I'd really like to know.

christos wrote:Most of these buttons include random like numbers to be displayed or the option to display no numbers.

Yes I know how they work, I've produced many websites in my time.
The thing is, if you choose not to display the numbers, or display a random one to ensure something looks positive/popular, then it simply proves the point that no-one is using the buttons or you'd use the real numbers.


christos wrote:images will always need to be fairly large

Er, NO!
There is no need for an image to be larger than the resolution it is being displayed at.
If the user wants to mouse over and magnify an image (or click on it if "old skool") that's when you fetch a larger version.


Again, all web designers should be made to reads/watch this:
http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm

A fine example from the above link:
"Consider this recent Vice article about botnets.
At the top of the article is a pointless 3 megabyte photograph of headphones."

It's over 270 page resources, 10MB and 7 seconds to load on my quad core i7 connected to a 300Mbps internet connection.
And that's *with* my ad blocker turned on!

I mean, seriously?!
7 seconds was the average page load time 20 years ago, the experience is no better today because we've taken every advance in cpu and data transmission and filled it with junk.
And if that was an old school web page, just a single column like that with the diagram in question and a featured item on top, I the end user read the same story/content in what, 500KB and sub half second load time?


Again, from the link above:
https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-10/

Look how much text there is, and maybe what, 25 pictures to re-inforce the point.
And that's perfectly fine as content. The fact that it's 51MB is not fine.


And then there are the lazy web developers who load in library after library of javascript each one to give some tiny little feature when 95% of the library goes unused.
It's either ignorance or laziness. Pure and simple.
Blaming the clients is just an excuse. The clients pay for expertise.
And if nothing else, people should take some pride in their work...
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1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:27 pm

You know what I've started doing? I find pages that are 'add free, but accept donations' and I'll donate to them. I absolutely hate ads and think they're an abomination (which is why I stopped watching broadcast television long ago). The only ads I watch now are maybe the occasionally funny one on youtube, or when I'm forced to, like arriving at a theatre too early.

But yeah, a stylish website that isn't filled with ads or javascript that makes a system with 32gb of ram hang is hard to come by these days.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby vido » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:30 pm

Regarding web pages. What I hate the most is that Atari related pages and forums dont support browsers available on Atari computers.
This forum is barely usable with NetSurf. It was a lot better about 2 years ago before last changes were done = probably upgraded.

If we wont take care by ourself to have our beloved cmputers usable, ...

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:44 pm

I agree with that. I know someone on amiga.org had created a proxy server that would make it so you could browse amiga.org on iBrowse on the Amiga.

My problem with that route though is that he didn't have https enabled, but on that note, SSL would need to be updated for correct browsing (and I think AmiSSL finally was updated, in fact I had started some thread of it on one of the Amiga forums, and some guy got into an argument about IPv6 support, which still to this day is far less important than what he thought it'd be, and that was a few years ago).
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:29 pm

vido wrote:Regarding web pages. What I hate the most is that Atari related pages and forums dont support browsers available on Atari computers.
This forum is barely usable with NetSurf. It was a lot better about 2 years ago before last changes were done = probably upgraded.

If we wont take care by ourself to have our beloved cmputers usable, ...


This.

1,000x this.
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:53 pm

We have HR dept staff make up a web page inside MS Word and then export to HTML to be placed on the Intranet as announcement. Those are huge compared to just writing out the same stuff by hand.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:58 pm

vido wrote:If we wont take care by ourself to have our beloved cmputers usable, ...


I can only think of... continue to do what we did back in the 80.... use BBS like the one we have now... telnet into DL's Dark Force !!!
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:27 pm

wongck wrote:We have HR dept staff make up a web page inside MS Word and then export to HTML to be placed on the Intranet as announcement. Those are huge compared to just writing out the same stuff by hand.

I can only think of... continue to do what we did back in the 80.... use BBS like the one we have now... telnet into DL's Dark Force !!!


Ha! Just reminds me at my last job whenever we'd ask the support people to send us a screenshot... they'd capture it, put it into a Word Doc, and then send it to us... pissed us off every time.

Been meaning to telnet in there! if only I had more time to do more Atari things! Trying to make more time for sure.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:34 pm

leech wrote:Ha! Just reminds me at my last job whenever we'd ask the support people to send us a screenshot... they'd capture it, put it into a Word Doc, and then send it to us...
:P Yeap. Everyone does that over here as well.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby joska » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:31 pm

vido wrote:Regarding web pages. What I hate the most is that Atari related pages and forums dont support browsers available on Atari computers.
This forum is barely usable with NetSurf. It was a lot better about 2 years ago before last changes were done = probably upgraded.

If we wont take care by ourself to have our beloved cmputers usable, ...


Could not agree more! It would be nice with something like qwk but for phpbb. A "tapatalk" for TOS :)
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:53 pm

joska wrote:
vido wrote:Regarding web pages. What I hate the most is that Atari related pages and forums dont support browsers available on Atari computers.
This forum is barely usable with NetSurf. It was a lot better about 2 years ago before last changes were done = probably upgraded.

If we wont take care by ourself to have our beloved cmputers usable, ...


Could not agree more! It would be nice with something like qwk but for phpbb. A "tapatalk" for TOS :)


This sounds like a job for someone better than me at programming!

Super Coder! Not sure who that is, because their identity is kept secret...

I was recently looking into what it'd take to get my Atari 8-bits networked. Apparently there is a twitter program for the 8-bit. That's crazy!
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby joska » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:02 pm

leech wrote:This sounds like a job for someone better than me at programming!

Super Coder! Not sure who that is, because their identity is kept secret...


The problem is not the client side. Troll could be extended to handle something like this. The problem is on the server side. You'd either have to parse the HTML output from phpbb or write some plugin. In both cases everything can be broken by subtle changes in next version of phpbb.

Btw there are forum software out there with NNTP-support, which means that we could use Troll on our Ataris as well as the web forum. However, I don't believe it's realistic to switch from phpbb now. Just too much work, and phpbb is also quite good.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:36 pm

Good points. Though have you used the little book icon on Firefox? (it's right on the URL bar). It seems to strip out all the garbage and turns a page into a basic screen reader of sorts. Kind of nice.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby mikro » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:49 am

EmpireAndrew wrote:I couldn't find a working install of Highwire sadly and the original site downloads are gone... :(

I know this is a bit late but for future generations: the original website can be still accessed trough http://highwire.atariforge.net. The SF.net mirror is not so good, especially source code is just a copy without any history.

The modern source code infrastructure is available on https://github.com/freemint/highwire with its website mirrored on https://github.com/freemint/highwire/tree/gh-pages (and 'rendered' on https://freemint.github.io/highwire however as you can see due to the lack of php support on github it's not very useful).

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby Desty » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:33 am

IMO the NodeJS ecosystem and/or community has contributed a lot to this tendency to produce massive websites. I recently forked a stub project at work that includes a "simple" Node server with React/Redux/Webpack for the front end. When built, it had a "node_modules" folder containing 280 mb of JavaScript, CSS and who knows what else. Wat....
tá'n poc ar buile!

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:12 pm

Now that Iv'e gotten my SuperVidel working, I just need to get MiNT working again (I think it's stuck doing a disk check...) or STiNG working without it (no clue there) I'll try to do a review of the various browsers.
Atari 8Bits: 800xl, 600xl, XEGS, 800, 130xe, 130xe (fully upgraded (soon!))
Atari STs: 1040STf (broken shifter), 1040STe, Mega STe, TT030, Falcon (CT60e, SuperVidel)


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