Madmax's tracker ?

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Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Shazz » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:11 pm

Hi,

At the end, do we know how madmax composed his songs (at least in the 80's area, the Big Demo,...) ? Did he release his tool ?
Or like Jess, just code :)

Just curious...
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby evil » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:49 pm

I think for the early ones (Readme, LSD, LCD, SNDS, B.I.G.) it was mostly C-64 compositions. So as far I know, those songs needed no composition tool. Although the note-player needed to be remade for the ST and sound programming done from scratch as well.

For newer original compositions (like Thalion games, TCB and Lost Boys demos..) I've had a glimpse at a tool called TFMXMMTEX-Editor. It is tracker-like, but not that easy to use, at least not without a manual.

And to answer the obvious follow-up question; sorry no I don't have a download-link for the program.

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby alexh » Tue May 02, 2017 3:23 pm

He released the tool at STNICCC2k (2000) didn't he? I remember him composing using it there. Ask Grazey of PHF.

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Sturm » Tue May 02, 2017 7:42 pm

I dunno, but i would like to know too. He was really the most skilled musician on the Atari, no doubt for me, and he managed to get better results on ST than on the Amiga.
The YM 2149, in expert hands had more "oomph" than Paula on Amiga, which sounded bland and dull in comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxWbQM2FDsc

But I think he was the only one to be able to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icyehMkqJ3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euceVq1ERXI

Most of the time, i have to agree the Amiga sounds better, except the soundtracks made by Jochen Hippel.
And he did a lot.
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Grazey / PHF » Tue May 02, 2017 8:09 pm

alexh wrote:He released the tool at STNICCC2k (2000) didn't he? I remember him composing using it there. Ask Grazey of PHF.


Naaa he's never officially released it. I emailed him a while ago for permission but drew a blank. I'm more inclined to think the reasoning is that he's too busy to reply rather than he doesn't want it released publicly.

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Estrayk » Thu May 04, 2017 12:34 am

alexh wrote:He released the tool at STNICCC2k (2000) didn't he? I remember him composing using it there. Ask Grazey of PHF.


Seems he shows a kind of TFMX editor at STNICC 2015.
Image
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby alexh » Thu May 04, 2017 3:23 pm

That's the one

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Grazey / PHF » Thu May 04, 2017 4:52 pm

Estrayk wrote:
alexh wrote:He released the tool at STNICCC2k (2000) didn't he? I remember him composing using it there. Ask Grazey of PHF.


Seems he shows a kind of TFMX editor at STNICC 2015.
Image


That's my Laptop :) He's now composed on my orange STFM in 2000 and VAIO laptop in 2015 :)

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby evil » Sat May 06, 2017 9:50 am

I suppose it can't hurt, so here you can see it playing the Solidify track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC4KG21_Lqo

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Estrayk » Sat May 06, 2017 4:01 pm

evil wrote:I suppose it can't hurt, so here you can see it playing the Solidify track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC4KG21_Lqo


Thanx Evil. Can you ask to Jochen if you can spread his editor?
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby evil » Sat May 06, 2017 5:14 pm

Estrayk wrote:Thanx Evil. Can you ask to Jochen if you can spread his editor?


I was asked not to upload it a long time ago when I was building the chip tracker section of my homepage. Also got some other nice trackers back then that remains unreleased, like MS 4.0 with seven voices. But I leave that up to Tao to finish it up and release when time is right :)

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Estrayk » Sun May 07, 2017 2:03 am

Perfect! Thx again.
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby lotek_style » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:36 pm

Well as long as Jochen does not give his permission we won't spread it... unfortunatly he hasn't replied to this topic yet.
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby alexh » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:49 pm

Why does it say TFMX?

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Mug UK » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:40 pm

alexh wrote:Why does it say TFMX?


The Future Music eXtended from memory (or thereabouts). Related to the original Future Composer that he did on the Amiga (again, may be slightly corrupt grey cells at play).
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby alexh » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:50 am

Not so much what it stands for. But why does it say it? TFMX is widely considered to be a Chris Huelsbeck format no?

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Estrayk » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:06 pm

alexh wrote:Not so much what it stands for. But why does it say it? TFMX is widely considered to be a Chris Huelsbeck format no?


Amiga TFMX "The Final Musicsystem eXtended" was coded by Chris, Peter Thierolf and Jochen Hippel. Jochen helped with 7voices routine in Amiga TFMX. And Chris and Jochen are known among them. Maybe the Jochen internal TFMX editor was the first one? Maybe that is the reason.
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby alexh » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm

Estrayk wrote:Amiga TFMX "The Final Musicsystem eXtended" was coded by Chris, Peter Thierolf and Jochen Hippel.

Is that true? I mean MM formats on the Amiga are known as HIP, HIPC and HIP7V. Are these TFMX derivatives? Or vice versa?

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby lotek_style » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Well it's connected somehow... I pointed Jochen to this thread... if we are lucky he will reply.
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Estrayk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:28 am

alexh wrote:
Estrayk wrote:Amiga TFMX "The Final Musicsystem eXtended" was coded by Chris, Peter Thierolf and Jochen Hippel.

Is that true? I mean MM formats on the Amiga are known as HIP, HIPC and HIP7V. Are these TFMX derivatives? Or vice versa?


I'm not an expert, but I do remember some things from when I was in the Amiga scene.

I do not know for sure but apparently Jochen and Chris were friends or had some kind of contact. Maybe just professional, but what is certain is that they worked on some projects together. One such project was the implementation of the 7 channel multiplexing in the TFMX editor. And if we remember the trajectory of Jochen, we can see several conversions from Chris adapted for Atari ST by madmax.

Nobody ever saw the music editor that Jochen Hippel used to do the Amiga songs, but it is known that he used 3 different replayers. HIP. HIP-COSO and HIP.7V. Called so by the creators of the Delitracker (Amiga replayer)

BTW, In 1990 an unknown coder called Supersero from a group called SUPERIONS apparently did some reverse engineering and was able to disassemble Jochen's code to be able to make a tracker using the exact same form of synth waves Jochen used in his Amiga songs. The Amiga program was called Future Composer.

Going back to the TFMX, no, it look nothing like the HIP, HIP-COSO and HIP-7v formats.

lotek_style wrote:Well it's connected somehow... I pointed Jochen to this thread... if we are lucky he will reply.


Yes, please. It would be interesting that Jochen would tell us what relationship really he had with Chris Huelsbeck and clarify the TFMX name.
:shrug:

(I Also pointed Chris Huelsbeck to this thread... if we are lucky he will reply too.)
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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby alexh » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:44 pm

I am just a big fan and non of my knowledge is first hand.

Estrayk wrote:what is certain is that they worked on some projects together. One such project was the implementation of the 7 channel multiplexing in the TFMX editor.

It is my belief that Jochen gave/sold Chris the 68k software sample mixing code. I don't know if he was part of the team who wrote TFMX. I suspect not.

Estrayk wrote:it is known that he used 3 different replayers. HIP. HIP-COSO and HIP.7V

Since I posted I think there is also HIP-COSO-7V too.

Estrayk wrote:called so by the creators of the Delitracker (Amiga replayer)

Is that true? Hmmm, I only ask because the ripped Amiga Jochen Hippel song files have this text in them (as some sort of header?). I don't know enough about the process of ripping songs from RAM to files to know if the addition of this string was done by the ripper tool or was in RAM in the original game.

There is some additional information from Don Addon (a well renowned Amiga music enthusiast and programmer) here :

http://aminet.net/package/mus/play/EP_JHippelST

It seems to imply that the MadMax tracker on the ST could load and save in TFMX format. Possibly because of his work on conversions of Chris Huelsbeck songs.

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Re: Madmax's tracker ?

Postby Estrayk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:26 pm

Chris Huelsbeck answer me:

Code: Select all

Jochen and I were neither friends nor competitors, we were just friendly colleagues at a time when not many people were doing this kind of work.

He did an Amiga emulating sound system on the Atari and I thought that his mixing routine could be ported back to the Amiga and used to enhance the Amiga capabilities... so I asked him kindly if he would share his Atari source code and he had nothing against that. I took apart the core of the mixer and ported it back to the Amiga making some modifications and incorporated it into TFMX. That's all... I always give him credit for the mixer core (it's a very good piece of programming) when I talk about it, so there should be no controversy about it...

TFMX stands for "The Final Musicsystem eXtended", which I had started way earlier on the C64 actually, then ported the basic concept to the Amiga
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