The differance between ST and Amiga

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Postby Gryzor » Tue May 18, 2004 12:45 pm

Have I missed something? What did Retrogamer say to me? It's blanked out.


Ah, all the better, nothing to worry about.

As with everyone's parents at the time, the idea was that they would also use it for household accounts


...and the household accounts/if your dad ever works it all out Heh, you should really watch Hey Hey 16k (do a search on the forum, there's a thread somewhere)!

I'm sure the Xbox and PS2 people have the same wars now


You got no idea. We're talking about hatred, really...

If you have a load of money you can go out and buy ALL the consoles


...but you'd probably end getting more associated with one, for one reason or the other, and the vicious cycle would begin again!

and reinforce the point that Atari roolz Amiga droolz nana nana naaaaaaaa


Heeheeeee! :lol:
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Consols?

Postby RetroGamerUK » Tue May 18, 2004 2:34 pm

Ah well lets not go into who said what etc, just take my word for it that I have been an ass and it is all in the past now.

As for X-Boxes and PS2s, they can bicker all they like because my PC is way better than any of them, although I suppose it did cost me slightly more, but the main thing is I can play my retro games on it, which other than atari include: Amiga, Speccy, SNES, NES, Megadrive, Playstation 1, CBS Colecovision, Various Arcade emulators (These have some classic Atari Arcade Titles), and my latest which is Freedo, the 3DO project, still in early development but looks promising!
I have never pursued C64 stuff as I never had one!, never played on one of those nice Jaguars either!, I wonder if there are emulators and Roms available for those?

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Postby Greenious » Tue May 18, 2004 8:18 pm

Batman wrote:hmmm, I might be wrong here but I think I have read some amiga specs somewhere saying that the cpu clockfrequency was lower then 8mhz. Don't know if I remember correctly or if it makes any difference?

Batman


The Amiga CPU indeed runs at a lower clockfrequency.

7.15909 MHz on NTSC systems
7.09379 MHz on PAL systems

If you connect an external genlock board or similar, you can have other speeds. But the basic amiga runs at these freq's.

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Postby Greenious » Tue May 18, 2004 8:24 pm

Ayreon wrote:RCA connection on ST is really cool. There must be a schematic for a stereo connection wandering around. A lot of ST tunes sound pretty cool in stereo. Unfortunatly it's crap for Samples and tracker music. Somehow splitting up the channels for stereo messes up the mixing or combining channels for playing samples and gives some serious noise over the sound. Building in a switch to switch between mono and stereo is a must.

Anyhow a good set of speakers and/or amplifyer makes a big difference.


The ST soundchip, PSG, is "cheated" to play samples, and must use all three channels at the same time to get the resolution of the samples up to a decent standard. Thus all three channels combined give the sample playback, not just one single channel. And if you separate them the resolution goes down horribly.

It was a while since I played around with this, but if I remember correctly, using only one channel to playback sample, gave the equivalent of 4 bit sound, using all three together improved that to 9 or 10.

So... no 16 bit CD sound here....

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Re: The amiga 500 have a lot adventages to the atari 1040st

Postby Greenious » Tue May 18, 2004 8:40 pm

soviet wrote:1)First the Amiga have stereo sound output (and 14 bit sound output)
far better than the atari 1040st
2)The video output
Amiga Genlock,Overscan to 740x580 in interleaced with up 32 colors
Atari 1040st, no genlock,640x200 mono, no interleaced no overscan
3) Amiga 500, 1 mb of sound and video memory
Atari 1040st, 32k video memory
4) Floppy drive formats Amiga standart to 880k
Atari 720k
5)Amiga 500mb have blitter chip, atar 1040 not
6)Colors (the amiga can do 4096 colors in HAM mode at the same time)
And 64 colors simultanius (most games use 64 colors)
Atari 1040 stfm 16 colors max.
7)Atari st keyboard (chiclet keyboard with calculator style feeling)
Amiga Keyboard (real mechanic keyboard)
8)Amiga default mouse (is crap)
Atari default mouse (bettter than the amiga one but not much)
9)If you take a look at the demos (i see lots of atari ones and amiga ones) you gona find that the amiga demos are much much prettier and far more impressing than the atari ones)
10)The amiga chipset is lot better than the atari 1040 one
you could see at graphic in games, the amiga ports of games have better backplanes and backgrounds more colors are fasters and have better sound.


1. No, the amiga hardware use 8 bit DAC. You could possibly combine them to improve the bitresolution somewhat, but at the expense of stereo.

2. You can quite simply achieve overscan on ST. However, the Amiga has more colors etc.

3. You are quite mistaken here. The standard amiga had the equivalent of max 1 mb ST-ram (where sound, videodata etc has to be located), the atari can use 4 mb for that. Amiga can have up to 9mb RAM in total. ST can have 14mb.

4. The floppy controller on Amiga was quite a bit better. But you have PC compatible format on ST, and you can format 82 tracks, 11 sectors and get 900kb disks, and some games used that.

5. The atari blitter is overrated, basically all functions are outperformed by the CPU. The amiga blitter rocks.

6. Actually, you can change palette anytime you want on ST, and some programs used it to display 512 color pictures. But yes, it's easier in hardware.

7. I've for the most part used Mega keyboards, and never any amiga kb extensively, but the 520/1040 keyboard is pretty bad.

8. Its hard to find a good mouse at all for Atari/amiga. Luckily they are quite similar, and any mouse other than the opriginal are available for both systems.

9-10. yup, it's a combination of things. On is that Amiga coders barely have to spend any time on audio playback. The other thing is the more flexible videochip, and the last thing is the blitter.

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Amiga vs ST

Postby RetroGamerUK » Wed May 19, 2004 4:11 pm

Greenious wrote:
"You are quite mistaken here. The standard amiga had the equivalent of max 1 mb ST-ram (where sound, videodata etc has to be located), the atari can use 4 mb for that. Amiga can have up to 9mb RAM in total. ST can have 14mb."

You say "standard Amiga", do you mean the A500?
If you do, and lets say for the sake of argument that a "Standard Amiga" can have no more than 9 meg RAM, then can a "standard" atari ST have 14 meg ? Or are you comparing a "Standard" Amiga with a "Top Shelf" ST? :?:

I am not biased in this argument either way, I am just confused as my Amiga 1200 has a Zorro 3 card with 8 meg fast RAM on a 72 pin simm card, which in addition to the A1200's 2 meg of Graphics memory makes erm 1,2,3...... 10 Meg RAM! (Just enough fingers and thumbs there! :lol: )
Greenious also claimed the Amiga could have no more than 1 Meg of Graphics memory, mine has 2 Meg. :?
I accept however, that I perhaps do not own a "standard" Amiga. Or do I?
Also, it has not been unheard of, by me anyway, for Amigas to have over 128 Meg RAM, my Emulator will allow up to 512M Z3 Fast RAM, however, perhaps this is irrelevant.

So as I said, don't shout at me as I am not biased in this discussion, as it would appear to me that many of you are, but please carry on as it is quite amusing :lol:

Here, give me a straight answer to this one: If the Amiga and ST are so different, then why was Starglider 2 released on "one size fits all" disk, which works on both Amiga and ST? and it does because I had (maybe still have) the very game, or a copy of it (copied on Amiga nibble copy). :wink:

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Re: Amiga vs ST

Postby Greenious » Wed May 19, 2004 8:13 pm

RetroGamerUK wrote:Greenious wrote:
"You are quite mistaken here. The standard amiga had the equivalent of max 1 mb ST-ram (where sound, videodata etc has to be located), the atari can use 4 mb for that. Amiga can have up to 9mb RAM in total. ST can have 14mb."

You say "standard Amiga", do you mean the A500?
If you do, and lets say for the sake of argument that a "Standard Amiga" can have no more than 9 meg RAM, then can a "standard" atari ST have 14 meg ? Or are you comparing a "Standard" Amiga with a "Top Shelf" ST? :?:

I am not biased in this argument either way, I am just confused as my Amiga 1200 has a Zorro 3 card with 8 meg fast RAM on a 72 pin simm card, which in addition to the A1200's 2 meg of Graphics memory makes erm 1,2,3...... 10 Meg RAM! (Just enough fingers and thumbs there! :lol: )
Greenious also claimed the Amiga could have no more than 1 Meg of Graphics memory, mine has 2 Meg. :?
I accept however, that I perhaps do not own a "standard" Amiga. Or do I?
Also, it has not been unheard of, by me anyway, for Amigas to have over 128 Meg RAM, my Emulator will allow up to 512M Z3 Fast RAM, however, perhaps this is irrelevant.

So as I said, don't shout at me as I am not biased in this discussion, as it would appear to me that many of you are, but please carry on as it is quite amusing :lol:

Here, give me a straight answer to this one: If the Amiga and ST are so different, then why was Starglider 2 released on "one size fits all" disk, which works on both Amiga and ST? and it does because I had (maybe still have) the very game, or a copy of it (copied on Amiga nibble copy). :wink:


The standard Amiga chipset can only handle 1 meg RAM that can be used for audio/video data. The ECS chipset can handle 2 mb. The earlier post somehow gave the impression that the Amiga got a 1 mb screensize. Which is totally wrong. In the highest resolution, the amiga wouldn't even come near using that much memory for a screen. The 1mb is referring to the RAM adress space that can be used by the onboard chips.

Regarding memory, I'm referring to the available adressing space to have the memory in, since both Atari/Amiga need some kind of expansioncard to actually fit the memory. And in this case I'm referring to A500. I don't know about possible enhancements in A1200. Or I remember wrong, and didn't count in the 1mb chipram (I think Amiga owners refer to it that way) that you can have.

Any memory beyond 16mb requires a better CPU than 68000, so I think it is irrelevant for this discussion anyway.

About starglider... This discussion is, if I'm not mistaken, about the differences between the hardware of the Atari and Amiga, not the similarities. Atari & Amiga are more similar than different, but that's not as fun to talk about. Many games were first written for Atari, and then ported to Amiga, using the same graphics etc, making the games virtually the same (disappointing many amiga owners), going from there to put both versions on the same disk, is relatively easy. My guess is that most gamemakers either wanted to make as much money as possible, or that they released one version ahead of the other.

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Differences between ST and AMIGA

Postby RetroGamerUK » Wed May 19, 2004 9:00 pm

Ah of course I see your point now, Amiga OCS = 1meg Chip max, ECS = 2 meg, AGA 8 meg etc, I was never that good on all that either.
So you were comparing an Amiga with OCS (A500) with an ST with Same CPU (68000), I never realised that an ST could have 15 meg RAM, gee that would take some soldering eh?
To raise another point:
Has anyone considered the difference in price between Amigas and STs?
After all, you get what you pay for, but could the Amiga justify it's relatively hefty price tag with marginally better games, which as Greenious just said, were "ported" from the ST in many cases.?

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Re: Differences between ST and AMIGA

Postby manicx » Thu May 20, 2004 1:45 pm

RetroGamerUK wrote:So you were comparing an Amiga with OCS (A500) with an ST with Same CPU (68000), I never realised that an ST could have 15 meg RAM, gee that would take some soldering eh?


Why soldiering? Have you ever used a mem upgrade for the ST/E? Also a correction: The A1200 doesn't have a ZIII expansion port. The expansion port is equivalent to ZII. Even today, the best add on for a plain A1200 has been the ZIV board which is based on the ZII standard. ZIII only exists in big box Amigas.


To raise another point:
Has anyone considered the difference in price between Amigas and STs?
After all, you get what you pay for, but could the Amiga justify it's relatively hefty price tag with marginally better games, which as Greenious just said, were "ported" from the ST in many cases.?


Yes it does. The question though is not what is best or what's not but which computer better meets your needs. As I said, the Atari has been about attitude whereas the Amiga has been about H/W capabilities.
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Amiga vs ST

Postby RetroGamerUK » Thu May 20, 2004 3:13 pm

Well obviously I am not as well versed with Amiga hardware as most of you, but I assure you that my A1200 has an expansion board (maybe a Zorro II, with a single SIMM card slot, a 68EC030 CPU, no FPU, MMU disabled, I also have a 3.5" HDD 2 gig, so yes, my Amiga is more about hardware than Attitude, there is no argument there, as for the memory point, I was made aware previously that STs cannot have more than 1 meg mem without some sort of card, I was joking.
As for the price issue, I think it is would have been relevant at the beginning, I mean, just imagine had the STs and Amigas been identically priced back then, how many people would have been into "Attitude" and not "hardware" not having the preferances and biases that exist today?
If that had been the case we would not be having this discussion now would we?
Of course we would, and are, which is because perhaps that many who fell for the ST did so initially because of the Atari trademark logo, not the lower price, they, like me, probably owned a 2600, or one of those early computers, or played Pole Position in the arcades.
I suppose one could say Atari always had a Cult following that Commodore never did, this, I suspect, is one reason people believe STs to be "Better".
My opinion is: Amiga has got more power, ST has a soul, which one is better? erm......

As always, please feel free to correct me on any/all points/assumtions I have made, and sorry for droning on and on and on ......

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Re: The amiga 500 have a lot adventages to the atari 1040st

Postby acidrain » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:19 pm

Wrong. The Amiga has 8bit Stereo PCM sound just like the Atari STE. The 14bit output is achieved through AHI which uses the CPU to achieve this. Even a 68030 struggles to achieve this output. I've installed this on my Amiga 4000 and still have problems to get the max out of it. Not to mention that output volume is lower.


Only AHI? Youre wrong. There are not only AHI can do this.

Let's face it, both the ST/E and Amiga 500/+ lacked in proper higher resolutions. Atari goes up to 640*400 in mono @ 72Hz that was a fantastic resolution to do some serious stuff. Unfortunately, you were limited to 2 colours. The Amiga on the other hand, had higher resolutions BUT they were INTERLACED and were unusable to a normal video monitor like the


oops, what about VGA monitor? The flickering will disapear for sure. =)

I think you need to understand in full how the Amiga uses memory.


What about memory usage? I can say I do not know what about mem use on the Atari's, but on ammy mem usage is superb.

Well, the Amiga had better disk drive in general but the capacity doesn't matter. It is the whole idea behind the FDD. Yes, the Amiga had a better FDD even though it was clicking once every 3-4 secs...


There are software patches which positioning FFD's head to zero track and it won't click anymore ;)

8)Amiga default mouse (is crap)
Atari default mouse (bettter than the amiga one but not much)


Phew, I havn't touch atari's mice, but my PS/2 mouse is good =). But honestly a mouse which came with my amiga 600 is cool enough.

Well, I am itching after that. The Atari demos were a scene on their own. The Atari demo scene proved that a machine with known limits can be pushed beyond them. That's why I loved and still love the ST. Because of the demo scene. The atari demos, are unique in any platform thanks to the unique menus that you have to choose where to go, what to see etc. Another thing with the ST demos is the scrolltext. If you knew the scene, every demo was like reading a magazine. The famous ST demo wars were fantastic with the groups 'fighting' with each other. At the same time, the Amiga demos were just amazing audio/visuals but nothing more. Pretty boring stuff. Every demo on the ST was treated like an expensive book. Each demo is a brick on the ST history wall. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for the Amiga. 80-90% of the Amiga users have no idea about demos. 80-90% of the ST users had at least 2-4 demos. When I bought my ST, I got to the demo scene a week later. That was part of the ST.


Have you seen spectrum? I love it coz it does what it does. But you are totally liyng when saying that 80-90% of ammy users have no idea 'bout demos. Demos on amiga - it is part of live. No demos - no ammy community.

As for the CPU speed, the Amiga run in lower speed than the ST because of one reason: Compatibility with video equipment. The NTSC Amigas were running slightly faster than the PAL ones simply because of the different syncs...

That's true and with BVision or Voodoo 3 PCI video card with different syncs it works much more faster. 8)
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Re: The amiga 500 have a lot adventages to the atari 1040st

Postby manicx » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:15 am

acidrain wrote:Only AHI? Youre wrong. There are not only AHI can do this.


So how can you do it on an A500?

oops, what about VGA monitor? The flickering will disapear for sure. =)


A VGA monitor will never makes the flickering to disappear. Resolutions like Interlaced PAL (640*512, 320*512 and many others) will always flicker. The only way to solve this is to buy a flickerfixer and only the A3000 came with a built in FlickerFixer. A1200 had the so called DblPal, VGA, DblNTSC resolutions that were flicker free but required a Multiscan/VGA monitor to work with. I also have a FlickerFixer for the non-Dbl resolutions that flicker like hell even in VGA monitors...


What about memory usage? I can say I do not know what about mem use on the Atari's, but on ammy mem usage is superb.


This always depends on the way you program things...

There are software patches which positioning FFD's head to zero track and it won't click anymore ;)


Software patches. This means you have to boot in WB. Most A500 users do not have a HD, hence the clicking. Also, even if you boot in WB, when a game 'kills' WB, you get the click again...

Have you seen spectrum? I love it coz it does what it does. But you are totally liyng when saying that 80-90% of ammy users have no idea 'bout demos. Demos on amiga - it is part of live. No demos - no ammy community.


I am not. I have an Amiga (actually, 4 Amigas) and I know exactly what I say there.
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Re: The amiga 500 have a lot adventages to the atari 1040st

Postby acidrain » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:58 pm

This always depends on the way you program things...


Well, first of all I have no a500. I have two a1200 and one a600. And a long time ago i had Atari 65xe. But i think that aos1.3 and aos3.9 has a big difference, but i don't think that kickstart of earlier versions and newer ones has been changed alot in memory usage.

Software patches. This means you have to boot in WB. Most A500 users do not have a HD, hence the clicking. Also, even if you boot in WB, when a game 'kills' WB, you get the click again...


well, no. when you have a 'cold boot' this will take place, but if you are just rebooted or killed system, than it will work and no clicks will be heard. (i now talking about a1200)

I am not. I have an Amiga (actually, 4 Amigas) and I know exactly what I say there.


I'm sorry, but this is NOT true. Every amigan knows the best demos as a minimum, all other sceners know such hits as '9 fingers', 'desert dream', 'laapsus', 'silkcut' and many others. Try to say that i'm wrong. Amiga is the scene. But Atari, pc, spectrum, c64 and others are the scene too. We are all just sceners.
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Just one thing :

Postby GT Turbo » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:47 pm

I just say one thing :


The coolest guys are on Atari and it's all to know !!!



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Postby manicx » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:08 am

He he GT Turbo rulez!

well, no. when you have a 'cold boot' this will take place, but if you are just rebooted or killed system, than it will work and no clicks will be heard. (i now talking about a1200)


Well, in an A1200 with a hard disk that is used to do more than just games, you can install a wee utility in WBStartup. But I can't see how this can be useful to a A1200 that is used just to play games (ie, no HD)...

I'm sorry, but this is NOT true. Every amigan knows the best demos as a minimum, all other sceners know such hits as '9 fingers', 'desert dream', 'laapsus', 'silkcut' and many others. Try to say that i'm wrong. Amiga is the scene. But Atari, pc, spectrum, c64 and others are the scene too. We are all just sceners.


Well, just because you like demos, doesn't mean that everyone else does. I have more than 20 Greek friends with Amigas and they don't have a clue about Odyssey, 9 fingers, Dudbrain and so on. BTW, the demos you mentioned are the so called next gen demos that I don't particularly like since they do nothing but trying to demonstrate a 2x2 pixels 3d abilities of the Amiga. I prefer the old-school demos like Coma, Dudbrain, Odyssey, Enigma and so on...
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Re: Just one thing :

Postby acidrain » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:27 pm

GT Turbo wrote:I just say one thing :


The coolest guys are on Atari and it's all to know !!!



GT Turbo (Better dead than amiga using !!!) :twisted:


No comments on this. The silliest phrase I have heard. Why do you think that all amigians (and others, who don't care about atari) are stupid?? You are talking like a 4 years guy. Sounds like Atari rulezzzz, amiga must die. There are alot of things in amiga to love to. And I didn't find one in atari (have seen only mulators, sorry). Say me one and we'll speak than, ok?

And calm down, I came with a peace! =)
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Postby acidrain » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:38 pm

Well, just because you like demos, doesn't mean that everyone else does. I have more than 20 Greek friends with Amigas and they don't have a clue about Odyssey, 9 fingers, Dudbrain and so on. BTW, the demos you mentioned are the so called next gen demos that I don't particularly like since they do nothing but trying to demonstrate a 2x2 pixels 3d abilities of the Amiga. I prefer the old-school demos like Coma, Dudbrain, Odyssey, Enigma and so on...


Well, let's say this way. Desert dream is oldskul too, but what are we duscussing here? The question was 'The difference between ST and Amiga'. What Amiga? a400 or a500. Question is wrong. Now I have teoretically a1200 but with PPC accelerator and GFX card and PCI bridge and 64megs of RAM. And what do you think better atari of ammy? No way to compare it.

Next I wished to say. I do not know anyone anywhere who doesn't like amiga's demos. Amiga is the scene. Atari is a liiiiitle scene.
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Postby Cyrano Jones » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:08 pm

Then go back to your "scene" instead of trolling around here.

Its funny how this was quite a civilized thread until a so-called "amiga scener" turned up.

Admins - Lock please! this is getting out of hand

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Postby Brume » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:16 pm

thread closed...


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