STFM internal IDE ?

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STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:59 pm

Did anyone ever develop a internal IDE for the ST ? Theres a circuit online somewhere but a little confusing. I am tempted to build one for my ST, maybe even do a small PCB run if anyone is interested.

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby alexh » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:00 am


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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby simonsunnyboy » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:05 am

Ordering --> "Not available"
Simon Sunnyboy/Paradize - http://paradize.atari.org/

Stay cool, stay Atari!

1x2600jr, 1x1040STFm, 1x1040STE 4MB+TOS2.06+SatanDisk, 1xF030 14MB+FPU+NetUS-Bee

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby alexh » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:06 am

Exxos asked "Did anyone ever develop a internal IDE for the ST ?"

Yes unfortunately Mario hasn't sold his Atari products direct to the public (or to anyone at all?) for almost 8 years.

But you can occasionally find them second hand, there was a place in the UK, some music shop (key something?), which bought all of Mario's back stock.

Do not forget that you will need a TOS2.06 upgrade to be able to autoboot, which may be slightly harder to source for STFm than TOS2.06 upgrades for STe

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby Mug UK » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:29 am

"key something" - is it http://www.keychange.co.uk/ - based down the road in Warrington perhaps?
My main site: http://www.mug-uk.co.uk - slowly digging up the bits from my past (and re-working a few): Atari ST, Sega 8-bit (game hacks) and NDS (Music ripping guide).

I develop a free Word (for Windows) add-in that's available for Word 2007 upwards. It's a fix-it toolbox that will allow power Word users to fix document errors. You can find it at: http://www.mikestoolbox.co.uk

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby Jookie » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:45 am

And how about the IDE interface by Ppera?

http://www.ppest.org/atari/astide.php

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:42 am

ahh, sorry, I ment stuff more like people have done themselves, not stuff which was made years ago..

talking more of just IDE hacks like
http://www.joogn.de/atari_ide.html

Just a couple of logic chips, just seems odd that nobody seems to have copied it... I dont know if TOS 104 does auto boot from IDE ? Its not something I looked into, but seems odd that you need 206 for that..

I did see that GAL version a while ago too, im just looking for a "no fuss" kinda thing to try out.

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:21 pm

Jookie wrote:And how about the IDE interface by Ppera?

http://www.ppest.org/atari/astide.php


I have some 'strange' impression that some people here systematically ignores whatever I write or say...

I did IDE IF in 1992. Now I have some improvements as hot-swap support, on site is complete project for Mega ST with PCB. All solutions have GAL as logic chip - with good reason. So, click on my signature's link and will see some things.
There is even answer about booting from IDE drive under TOS 1.04 or 1.6 (1.62) - any TOS can be patched to boot from IDE... Only bad thing is that it will not work with 'regular' drivers, since they use not only boot code from ROM but new XBIOS functions for IDE sector read. It is present only in TOS 2.06 and above. Probably possible to add it too in older TOS versions, if there is enough free space in ROM, what is certainly case by TOS 1.6/62 . But it has not much sense, and better to upgrade STE right to 2.06. My driver works well under TOS 1.04 with IDE drives, and boots. (so don't expect that I will solve XBIOS patch for older TOSes).

Odd that TOS 1.04 boots not from IDE ? IDE just arrived in that time (1989), and was not much in use. + Difference in price between IDE and SCSI drives was small, so normal that Atari did not support IDE.
Now, I know about that Joogn's solution, and even mentioned here couple times. I did not try it, but as I see by schematic it should work. However, my GAL solution has some advantages as TOS 2.06 support.
Btw. making GAL programer is not big deal - may do it for 2 Euros cost- just need some accurate, adjustable voltage power supply.

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:29 pm

So will a IDE CF work in TOS 104 with HD8 for example, but the only draw back is it will not boot ? its a little confusing as you mention mega and 206 all in one go..

If 104 will work fine with HD8 and you have a solution then I would be interested in one. I'm not bothered about the boot part really, though unsure exactly what you are saying with patching TOS and it not working with drivers etc..

Also, I was thinking of a internal solution, like just patching into the blitter socket, rather than any external solution, not sure what's exactly possible or not.

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:39 pm

exxos wrote:So will a IDE CF work in TOS 104 with HD8 for example, but the only draw back is it will not boot ? its a little confusing as you mention mega and 206 all in one go..

If 104 will work fine with HD8 and you have a solution then I would be interested in one. I'm not bothered about the boot part really, though unsure exactly what you are saying with patching TOS and it not working with drivers etc..



You must not believe me... I usually write proven things on my site, and know a lot about TOS (versions).
There is no any contradiction in what I told. And I will not write support for 80 Euro costing Hddriver. Ask Uwe to make TOS patches...

Mega ST adapter has support for TOS 2.06 (addresses for ROM are different than by 1.0x TOS versions). So, Mega ST will autoboot only from regular TOS 2.06 (with Hddriver or AHDI). But mine boots from 1.04 too. Of course, because I'm not tied to Hddriver.

You can use Hddriver with internal IDE IF on TOS 1.0x by loading it from floppy. That's all, thank you for your attention :D

P.S. may solving it with cartridge too, if floppy is not likeable :idea: :D

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:54 pm

ppera wrote:You can use Hddriver with internal IDE IF on TOS 1.0x by loading it from floppy. That's all, thank you for your attention :D



I am not bothered if I have to boot from floppy to load HD8 drivers to get the IDE to work. I was just talking about adding the internal IDE like http://www.joogn.de/atari_ide.html , I was just asking if anyone had done this "particular" arrangement before I spend hours developing a PCB for it all. I'm not upating to TOS206, so if it means I have to load HD8 from floppy then thats fine by me!

the ones on your site needs patches, cart ports, ASCI port, TOS 206, GAL's, Im NOT talking about all that stuff and going down that road just for the sake of booting from hard drive. I have a STE with Veloce TOS 206, works fine with my SCSI drive. The STFM is what I am looking at, TOS 104 ONLY!

So now thats all clear, has anyone developed a internal IDE such as listed on joogn's site ? or actually built that one ?

ppera

Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:02 pm

exxos wrote:...
the ones on your site needs patches, cart ports, ASCI port, TOS 206, GAL's, Im NOT talking about all that stuff and going down that road just for the sake of booting from hard drive. I have a STE with Veloce TOS 206, works fine with my SCSI drive. The STFM is what I am looking at, TOS 104 ONLY!

So now thats all clear, has anyone developed a internal IDE such as listed on joogn's site ? or actually built that one ?


I don't know what you talking about. On my site is lot of solutions... Only thing what is necessary is GAL. What ACSI has with internal IDE ? Or cart port ? They are for diverse interfaces. I recommend to you that Google little for simple GAL programmer.

I doub that everyone here built something like Joogn's IDE IF ? Here is max. 5 people doing HW, including you and me. And that Joogn's interface is pure rape :mrgreen: (just a remind for someone here)

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:24 pm

It maybe best if you just link to the diagram of what I am asking so we can at least start "on the same page"...

all I am asking is to hard wire a IDE drive into the blitter socket, using logic chips looked easy, but ok, lets assume a GAL will be used then, does this mean you already have a PCB with the GAL circuit on ? IDE connector ? If you already have this developed then it would make easy work to develop a adapter to fit into the blitter area. There is no use me spending time on circuits if it has already been done :?

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:35 pm

Here is old version: http://www.ppest.org/atari/aidesch.htm

Little simpler, and probably better for you : http://www.ppest.org/atari/megastide.html

Don't be confused that on scheme writes Mega ST - only PCB is for Mega ST specific. You can correct schematic, if work with Eagle. As you may see, even on Mega ST is required some soldering.

Adapter for blitter socket ? I did not see machine with empty blitter socket...
IDE connector on PCB? Why? It goes on end of cable, what can be mounted on different places, to be accessible from outside (in case of CF).

If you work with Eagle, I have proposal: I will post schematic (in Eagle SCH + pic) of even newer version, universal, so with connections to CPU lines, not Mega ST exp. slot. Then you do whatever PCB variant want and post here :D

P.S. I think that blitter socket has not all CPU lines needed... Check what required lines missing there...
We need for IDE: D0-D15, minimum A2,A3,A4,A5 , A17-A23. AS, RW , DTACK

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:11 pm

I will take a look..

Yes I use Eagle :-)

All the STFM machines have empty blitter area, never seen sockets fitted there..

ppera

Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:57 pm

OK, here is the schematic as PNG pic and Eagle SCH:
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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:55 pm

great stuff :)

Will see what damage I can do ;)

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:16 pm

over1s.JPG


I'm having a thought ?
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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:02 pm

damn, Shifter only has DATA lines :S
blitter.png


However, looks at the blitter it appears to have all the lines you mentioned ?

It wouldn't be a problem to develop a small PCB to fit into the blitter section on the motherboard, there is room upwards for a CF card. I am thinking more of a complete board where the CF card fits onto the PCB directly to do away with cables, then everything is fixed internally.

Even better thought, as all the address lines are on the blitter, then would be easy to fit in there a 72pin simm for 4MB. Would just need to tap into the row of resistors for the MMU lines... would make an interesting little project!
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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:51 pm

OK, I give up, wheres the PLCC 68pin package with offset pins ? All the ones in Eagle have the pins aligned, but on the ST they are not :S

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:57 pm

In almost any case I was forced to design myself component for library in Eagle...

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:33 pm

ppera wrote:In almost any case I was forced to design myself component for library in Eagle...


Yeah, I had to do that with PeST also :S have a huge lib from cadsoft's FTP site, everything in there other than what you want!

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:51 pm

On JP1, where is CER & ROE go ?

Also, are the numbers correct on the CPU on your sch ? Pin 55 is not A23 its D14.. These pin out problems have to be sorted out first :? Saying that I think this is for the STE CPU so probable you used the PLCC pinout....
68k.JPG
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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby ppera » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:37 am

exxos wrote:On JP1, where is CER & ROE go ?

Also, are the numbers correct on the CPU on your sch ? Pin 55 is not A23 its D14.. These pin out problems have to be sorted out first :? Saying that I think this is for the STE CPU so probable you used the PLCC pinout....


CER (18) and ROE (19) are for TOS 2.06 . If not using it then connect ROE (should me marked ROM2) to VCC and connect not CER .
If using TOS 2.06 upgrade with 2x 271001 or similar then connect ROE to point ROM2 of ST and CER to CE pins of EPROMs.
It can be done without too much digging: http://www.ppest.org/atari/flashest.php - signals are accessible on ROM selection pads.

Schematic is for PLCC. Damn... it is not same pin layout. Then need to make separated SCH for DIL 68000....

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Re: STFM internal IDE ?

Postby exxos » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:57 am

ahh, ok, well TOS206 is for another day ;-)

I updated the sch to DIL so am working from that now.

I am looking to fit internal 2.5" CF adapter. This will fit above the blitter (to the side of the shifter and behind the floppy). Easy small solution.

Also have been thinking about adding 4MB simm in there also... Only place it could go would be in front of the shiter.. The board would look like a large "T" type shape, would only fit the later motherboards... but I was not planning on putting this into production anyway.. :?

I will upload the PCB layout when done, but really need to know if anyone would want a 4MB addon with a internal IDE which is what I am doing... I doubt I would use a 4MB STFM, but if a PCB is being developed then it could be a option for some people..

Could TOS be switchable from 104 to 206 ? Maybe possible to develop a small pcb for this another time... I think I had this as "dual TOS" , but may have only been 102 to 106 or something like that...


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