[SOLVED] The most ridiculous cooling problem

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mikro
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:26 am

ThorstenOtto wrote:two months is plenty of time to move to norway ;)

Considering the oven suggestion I'd say yours isn't half that bad. :D

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:14 pm

willy wrote:Let me know results.

Results are good (or bad, hard to say now ;)). I spent a fair amount of time knocking around and didn't see any crash or anything unusual. I made sure I'm testing the CT in good conditions, i.e. that crash/freeze wouldn't happen because of the temperature but only because of the knocking (in other words, I waited till 9PM and ran at 66 MHz).

I can't shake off the feeling this must have something with the temperature alone. I don't know how others but from time to time I see an error coming from CT60TEMP.ACC that the sensor was unable to read temperature. And just today I saw a really funny thing, the temperature meter in the CPX was raising up to 35 degrees and then was falling down for a few seconds down to zero (and then again set at 35).

So I'm wondering whether isn't possible that the temperature sensor is doing some kind of unwanted service here but then again, it just doesn't make sense, it's a sensor, it shouldn't have any control over the CPU or anything.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby Ragstaff » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:04 am

joska wrote:Sounds like a recipe for disaster...

Well considering we are talking about using a home oven, it's a recipe for something. CT60e pizza perhaps

willy wrote:
@Ragstaff: ... no comments ...


mikro wrote:Considering the oven suggestion I'd say yours isn't half that bad. :D

Anyway, I'm sorry for the barbaric suggestion.
You all have more expertise than myself so I assume I am not telling you anything new. And I know the problem can reoccur when you do it this way.
I reflowed a laptop motherboard the same day I made the offensive post, which worked...

When the unit is faulty you don't have much to lose, but I appreciate a CT60 is much rarer than a laptop motherboard and you would rather do precise surgery than chemotherapy.

1) I have a dedicated 14 litre oven because the smell and chemicals don't mix well with food. $30 for this unit from KMart.
P1360726.jpg


2) I remove all stickers, socketed IC's, and protect sensitive components like capacitors, CPU socket, plastic plugs etc with tin foil.
In this case I am targeting the 1GB Radeon video chip, installed as BGA so don't cover that.
P1360705.jpg


3) I sit the motherboard on 4 balls of foil so it doesn't get any hot "grill" lines like a grilled steak!
P1360707.jpg


4) Pre-heated the oven to 200 C, baked for 8 minutes. Turn oven off and let it cool down slowly, don't touch it while solder could still be liquid and components might move.
Motherboard reinstalled, laptop now working as of 45 minutes ago.
P1360725.jpg
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:01 am

Although I could never force myself to do this despite the evidence (same as I can't wash electronics as seen on youtube), I admit it's interesting. What I'm missing is the reason -- what was wrong with the motherboard? Could you see some cold solder joints which got fixed by this procedure?

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby Ragstaff » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:53 am

I know it doesn't feel right. And to be fair a CT60 is far rarer and more precious than this laptop motherboard.
I had nothing to lose in my case, so it was worth a shot.
I was just chucking the idea out there. It could at least help identify if it's a cold solder / crack problem which you could then get fixed properly afterwards.

How did I decide this was the appropriate action for this laptop? Symptoms matched a common issue with this motherboard, solder cracks on the graphics chip BGA connections (before I read about it my own suspicion was video chip as well). There's even a video of a guy reballing the whole BGA on this motherboard, but that is beyond my skill or equipment level.
I hate being part of the disposable society but a new motherboard was $80 shipped, and there's no way I could pay someone to fix it for that. So I ordered a new motherboard and had nothing to lose with this old one. As I said above, I tried to protect most things with foil but let the video chip and simpler parts of the PCB have full heat. Who knows, it might only last a week, but it works perfectly now.
In the past I have baked things a lot less carefully, not using any foil, letting stickers burn off instead of removing them.... it was brutal, but even that worked. Old Pentium IV motherboard, even a little circuit board from an ink cartridge that my printer stopped recognising.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:14 pm

Hmm, intriguing. As you say, you had very little too lose, not exactly the CT60e's case. ;) In case of CT60e, I'd be also afraid about its plastic parts (SDRAM socket, PSU socket, motherboard sockets), 200 degrees is freaking hot.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby paul92706 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:53 pm

mikro wrote:Hmm, intriguing. As you say, you had very little too lose, not exactly the CT60e's case. ;) In case of CT60e, I'd be also afraid about its plastic parts (SDRAM socket, PSU socket, motherboard sockets), 200 degrees is freaking hot.

you are right Mikro you would melt those plastics connectors on the CT60e! get yourself a Hot Air gun, that way you could isolate all the IC's and reflow them.
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:20 am

paul92706 wrote:get yourself a Hot Air gun, that way you could isolate all the IC's and reflow them.

I do have something similar (a desoldering station which has basically the same thing) but first I'd like to confirm that it is the bad seating what's causing it. Today I plan to do a 'scientific experiment' to compare various thermal conditions, I hope I'll have much better idea whether its about heat or air pressure. But my money is still on the heat/temperature because there's still the fact it works much better in colder environment and it's definitely not *that* different that it could melt some solder joints.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:40 am

mikro wrote:
paul92706 wrote:get yourself a Hot Air gun, that way you could isolate all the IC's and reflow them.

I do have something similar (a desoldering station which has basically the same thing) but first I'd like to confirm that it is the bad seating what's causing it. Today I plan to do a 'scientific experiment' to compare various thermal conditions, I hope I'll have much better idea whether its about heat or air pressure. But my money is still on the heat/temperature because there's still the fact it works much better in colder environment and it's definitely not *that* different that it could melt some solder joints.


Good for you but this whole situation should be easy. Since it is new product Willy should exchange for a working item. Does he not warranty his product?

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:45 am

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Good for you but this whole situation should be easy. Since it is new product Willy should exchange for a working item. Does he not warranty his product?

I'm pretty sure he does but see one of my posts above -- shipping it back to Denmark would cause me two months (if not more) pause in everything -- it takes about 3 weeks to receive package from the EU. So if I can spend few more days to make sure that this is the last possible option, why not to try it.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mzry » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:00 am

Hey mikro, I gave you three things to check/try, just wondering if you actually tried any of them?
Last edited by mzry on Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby joska » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:07 am

mzry wrote:No1: Is your PCB bending to push down the bottom connection pins? I have mine half way up to prevent any bending


It would be interesting to see a picture of your Falcon motherboard. My CT60e is fully inserted and there is no bending whatsoever. Both expansion port headers - on both motherboard and CT60e - are of the exact same height. I've got two Falcons and both are the same.
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mzry » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:32 am

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6vqg ... kkyQVYzc0k

Probably the best photo I have at the moment. It's the same issue 106p has in his 'CT60e, Not measuring up' thread (viewtopic.php?f=97&t=31398) . The bottom connector closest to the keyboard cannot be fully pressed in otherwise the PCB bends. Thats why I was wondering if Mikro accidentally fully pressed it down causing the pcb to bend and maybe damage it.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby joska » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:58 am

It is hard to see. Is the height of the two expansion port headers on the motherboard different? If so, is the thickness of the plastic base of the headers different too?
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mzry » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:15 pm

I'll let you know next time I open it up, I have a 512mb ram stick coming soon so I'll check it out. But still, the bottom header is definitely too low for the ct60e to fully press down, which is why I keep it half-way inserted. The top header is 100% inserted.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby willy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:44 pm

I was thinking a lot about the problem, and only logical explanation (beside broken ct60e) could be that the extremely fan is cooling another component somewhere on the PCB. (PSU, something located underneath ct50e ... etc). Mystical.
Anyway, screwdriver test did not reveal any cold joints, so i would drop this possibility.

The "ADC chip" is emulating the original chip used on CT60, I've never seen it is dropping temp readouts. So, it may be another blueprint of bad chip. But, it may also be a bug in firmware or just "undefined feature".

Falcon expansion port pins are different high, That was a bit difficult to find standard connectors that fit and match high together with falcon power connector. Finally, I've decided to make a compromise, the upper row does not fit perfectly, there is about 1mm gap.

If anyone *really* want to reflow the ct60e, you have to desolder all connectors. No other way, maybe Ram connector could withstand reflow process.
But remember, you will void warranty. Reflow only makes sense when BGA chips are used, otherwise it does not. It is faster, easier and safer to use flux and soldering iron.

BR
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby joska » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:00 pm

willy wrote:Falcon expansion port pins are different high, That was a bit difficult to find standard connectors that fit and match high together with falcon power connector. Finally, I've decided to make a compromise, the upper row does not fit perfectly, there is about 1mm gap.


I have no idea what you're talking about. I had to remove my CT60e to measure it again:

Falcon motherboard:
Small connector: Plastic base, 4.4mm. Total pin height, 10.8mm
Large connector: Plastic base, 4.4mm. Total pin height, 10.8mm

CT60e:
Small connector: 11mm
Large connector: 11mm

As you can see, both the expansion port connectors has the *exact* same height on both the motherboard and the CT. When I insert the CT - all connectors fully seated - the CT is completely level compared to the motherboard, and also completely straight (checked with ruler). The same applies to my other Falcon which I've also tested the CT in.

The power connector is a fraction of a mm lower than the expansion port connectors though, I cut away the tabs on it to make it easier to insert/remove the CT and also to prevent the connector from pulling the CT against the motherboard. I also have supports under the rear of the CT.
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:14 am

willy wrote:I was thinking a lot about the problem, and only logical explanation (beside broken ct60e) could be that the extremely fan is cooling another component somewhere on the PCB. (PSU, something located underneath ct50e ... etc). Mystical.
Anyway, screwdriver test did not reveal any cold joints, so i would drop this possibility.

I've finished my 'scientific experiment'. :) The results aren't astonishingly good or explaining but still point to the right direction.

I was trying to pinpoint the exact nature of the bug. So I made six separate runs for measurements until the freeze (each with 5 minutes pause):

1. Cold start (Falcon+CT60e off for whole day)
2. - 6. Smaller heatsink *and* additional weight on each of the ICs (3x Xilinx + 2x the smaller ones, all between the expansion slots)

Each measurement started after the freeze + 5 minutes to "cool off".

First set:
1. 0:10:23 (cold start)
2. 00:03:34 (left X.)
3. 00:04:06 (top X.)
4. 00:02:50 (bottom X.)
5. 00:03:29 (top right IC)
6. 00:03:49 (bottom right IC)

This looked promising so I did second set, obviously without 1.)

2. 00:03:39
3. 00:03:22
4. 00:02:48
5. 00:04:10
6. 00:02:08

Not good, i.e. quite random. To confirm my suspicion I made the six runs without any heatsink or anything today:

1. 00:08:50
2. 00:04:16
3. 00:04:20
4. 00:03:36
5. 00:02:00
6. 00:01:38

As yo can see, the numbers are more or less the same, just randomly shuffled. And now the best part, I left everything as it was and just added the fan again:

IMG_20170413_190519.jpg


it goes on and on for 25+ minutes (on 90 MHz !!!). And as you can see, there's no freaking way this is affected by the PSU, CPU or whatever -- not only they aren't hot at all but also the airflow goes in totally different direction. Also there's very limited range of ICs on the motherboard which can benefit from such cooling, 80% of air goes to the CT60e PCB.

So there must be something on the PCB which is overheating. Isn't possible those tiny resistors or whatever they are aren't very hot on the surface and yet hot inside?

Anyway, next Friday I'm going to have opportunity to test it in another Falcon. If the symptoms are same, we can be pretty sure it's not my Falcon's motherboard which benefits from this flow of cold air and I assume send it back to Willy (very unwillingly ;-)). And if the symptoms wont be there... oh my.

EDIT: what has really caught my attention is the fact that after this 'happy run' (I interrupted it manually, without any freeze), disabling the fan doesn't lead to the usual cold start time, nope, it froze in its typical 4 minutes. So whatever the fan is doing, it's helping just to survive, not to cool off the whole thing.
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby jvas » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:55 am

I've heard, that some flux starting to conduct electricity when the temperature goes up. Doesn't it worth to clean the pcb?

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby Ektus » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:22 pm

Could it be a contact problem with the Falcon's power connector? Either the connector itself, or a solder joint on either the CT60E or the Falcon Mainboard? To rule out cooling effects on the Falcon, you could (in the setup as shown in your picture) put a peace of cardboard between the CT60E and the big capacitor to prevent the air flow from reaching the mainboard.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:39 am

Ektus wrote:Could it be a contact problem with the Falcon's power connector? Either the connector itself, or a solder joint on either the CT60E or the Falcon Mainboard? To rule out cooling effects on the Falcon, you could (in the setup as shown in your picture) put a peace of cardboard between the CT60E and the big capacitor to prevent the air flow from reaching the mainboard.

Yep, been there, done that:

IMG_20170414_130527.jpg

Solid 18+ minutes and counting. If it were anything on the Falcon PCB it would suffocate by now, it's literally covered with the cardboard, not letting any heat out, not to speak about letting any cold air in.

Just to be sure, I did the same from the opposite side (I wouldn't be surprised if the CT60e stopped working even if there weren't any bug!):
IMG_20170414_134550.jpg

And no, it's alive and kicking. So the fan does some kind of miracle to the right side of the CT60e PCB.

I'll try to inspect the power connector / connection on the CT60e but it would be pretty strange side effect. However, nothing is impossible, the connector has the "CTPCI mod" done, so who knows, maybe something got broken during the procedure. Anyway, why a fan makes it better remains mystery.
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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:29 am

OK, little heads-up here as well. I've been lucky enough to test the CT60e in another Falcon today (and will have yet another one next Friday). So I put the same CT60e + PSU + RAM + (no fan, just heatsink), put it into the other machine, set frequency to 95 MHz (to make it crash sooner) and ... yes, it did crash after a while.

Hooray I say, it's clear it's CT60e fault! But I wanted to be sure so I down-clocked it to 85 MHz and guess what -- rock solid. I even made sure and covered it with some cardboard box so definitely no cooling from whatever place could get in (and it definitely wasn't that cold outside -- as soon as I put the board into my Falcon again, the problem was back).

What does it mean, esp. with the post before this one? I have no freaking clue. One interesting difference is that my Falcon has clock patch while the other hasn't. Maybe not important, maybe yes, will know better next Friday.

EDIT: forgot to add: after I switched the boards back, I noticed that the "good Falcon" really pushes it, all three Xilinx ICs were quite warm, same for the CPU. And then, even though I applied my fan trick, it didn't help anymore. It nearly looks like the fan just slows down the inevitable and as soon as the ICs/resistors/I_really_dont_know_what reaches certain temperature, there's no way back. Now I have it running at 85 MHz with the very same fan, in the very same position, happily, no problems whatsoever (and made sure it's freezing without the fan).

This just doesn't make sense.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby jvas » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:58 pm

The clock patch must be removed in case of the CT60. Not sure about the CT60e. Don't know how it is related to the fan though.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby mikro » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:15 pm

jvas wrote:The clock patch must be removed in case of the CT60. Not sure about the CT60e. Don't know how it is related to the fan though.

If you're referring to this https://mikrosk.github.io/ct60tos/CT60/ ... ting63.htm (at the bottom):

- You hear some audio CRACs when running SDMATEST (2KB) at 50 KHz with 4 tracks
AND/OR
- The machine is not stable.

WORK AROUND :
- Verify you see no 74F08 soldered (added) on the clock trace near the SDMA chip. If yes, you must remove this 74F08 and connect again the clock trace (that was cutted for this 74F08).
- On the GAL U63 (left of the NVRAM) : - If you see a component 74F08 or 74F04 with some wires connected on the resistor places R216, R217, R221 & R222, you must remove this component and the wires. Solder the three 33 ohms SMT resistors (furnished) on R216, R221 & R222 places. - If you have no 74F08 or 04 on U63, you have to verify all the three resistors R216, R221 & R222 are well 33 ohms marked 330 or 33R). On some motherboards, one of them can be a 0 ohm (marked 0 or 0R0) : replace it with a 33 ohms.
- Locate the SDMA (U36) under the floppy drive place. Locate the Clock trace arriving the the second pin from the left/rear corner (see the photo). Scratch the varnish (2 mm long) until you reach the metal, then tin it. Solder the 47 ohms (yellow, purple, black, gold) resistor (furnished) between the pin #14 of the AJAX chip (U20) and the clock trace like on the picture. The resistor must be closest to the SDMA and the pin soldered on the clock trace must be the shortest possible : it is termination resistor.

This definitely looks like a hint but would be also for the first time I see a problem like this with a clock patch (all my Falcons in Slovakia are clock patched and no problem). On the other hand, this might be a poorly executed one, so... damn it, soldering three SMT resistors is not something I'd be looking for.

Anyway, in the meantime I've tried to resolder (just to be totally sure, I'm not very experienced with reflowing) the power connector, I tried to be as thorough as possible and guess what, no change whatsoever. Also, the fan trick still works. Since it's the Easter holidays, there's no way I can obtain the resistors somewhere so I'll try to experiment with the fan a bit more -- to develop some kind of tube which would considerably narrowed down the air flow direction, now that we know it's definitely something on the CT60e which cures it.

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Re: The most ridiculous cooling problem

Postby asik » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:36 pm

jvas wrote:The clock patch must be removed in case of the CT60. Not sure about the CT60e. Don't know how it is related to the fan though.

Are you sure about clock patch (please double check).
I used many years ct63 (107mhz stock ct63 cooling system and stock closed falcon case) with clock path, and use ct60e with rev. six cpu, at this time only 66mhz, and 75mhz mhz without cooling system.
But i install big cooling and will try ct60e go to 110mhz :)
I bought new cpu rev. six for ct60e ,without cooling system is stabil 75mhz one hour on quake game.
When i come back to home a try more mhz, at this time is easter holiday....
AS...


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