CT60e, Not measuring up.

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CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 10p6 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:40 am

First of all I want to say I love my Falcon and the CT60e concept, but unfortunately I have measured some issues with the CT60e while working on my internal PSU design.

1. Note the connectors on the Falcon and CT60e are not level (From top of Falcon PCB to the bottom of CT60 PCB). For instance the lower expansion port connector has a total height of 13.25mm (Falcon and CT60e connectors), the upper expansion port is 16mm) and the power connector (CT60e to Falcon) is 14.6mm. This does not sound like much, but this is causing the CT60e to crown, then making things worse, on the ATX adapter side, the PSU is causing the CT60e to now flex in another direction (see below.) If you look at the Falcon Expansion headers, you will see they are two different heights, thus to allow boards around for the lower part of the RF shield. Now if you look at the the CT60e headers, you will see they are both the same height when the should not be.

2. A CT60e with commonly used PicoPSU does not fit in the RF Shield. From the top of the Falcon PCB to the RF shield is 49 mm on a good day. The height of the CT60e with PicoPSU which most are using is nearly 52mm. So if people are getting these to fit, then they are warping the CT60e and or RF Shield too, and leaving the possibility of arcing from the PSU to the RF Shied. To make things worse, those who are using a PicoPSU are using an un-grounded DC adapter, so if that PicoPSU arcs to the RF shield (The Pico Hot / Live contact is only 0.5mm from the RF Shield), not only will you probably destroy the CT60e, but your Falcon too, and maybe start a fire and could also result in a electric shock ('I would highly recommend you put some electrical insulation tape on the underside of the RF shield above the PicoPSU as a minimum until you ground your Falcon.)

3. Documentation. How difficult would it have been to include a simple sheet explaining the jumpers explaining what each one is, and how it is connected? IE. is the 30/60 switch an on off switch, or SPDT switch that needs to be shorted to ground or + Volts? A shopping list of parts needed and places to get them? The only info provided with the board is to go to this website which contains, well nothing really handy at all. http://jil.guru/32bit/CT60e/

4. Software, trouble shooting is pretty much non existent too, and the creators are the ones who could save everyone a lot of headaches as they know what to and not to do.

So with the lack of any documentation and potential for cracks in solder joints from warped PCB and PSU issues, I am curious how this warranty is going to play out when things go wrong. All in, a CT60e with 68060, PSU, Ram and all the other parts adds up to over $500, and for that sort of money, the seller needs to do better.
Last edited by 10p6 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby mikro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:42 am

2. is not true for my Falcon, I can easily fit it without touching anything

3. https://mikrosk.github.io/ct60tos/CT60/ ... nosold.htm

4. https://github.com/mikrosk/ct60tos/releases/tag/1.03c (contains also ct60.hyp, pretty exhaustive documentation)

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 10p6 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:06 am

mikro wrote:2. is not true for my Falcon, I can easily fit it without touching anything

3. https://mikrosk.github.io/ct60tos/CT60/ ... nosold.htm

4. https://github.com/mikrosk/ct60tos/releases/tag/1.03c (contains also ct60.hyp, pretty exhaustive documentation)



Do you mind if you link to what PSU you are using? Nice link to the CT60, unfortunately this was not provided with the CT60e from the seller.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby mikro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:29 am

I agree, Willy should have provide those. :-/ As for the PSU, if you're on FB, I posted it in the Falcon group else you must wait until I get home.

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 10p6 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:37 am

mikro wrote:I agree, Willy should have provide those. :-/ As for the PSU, if you're on FB, I posted it in the Falcon group else you must wait until I get home.


Facebook Group?
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby mikro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:59 am

This is the one I bought: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/171379578075 although I think it's too weak, as mentioned in the other thread. I don't think it's less tall than any other PicoPSUs.

EDIT: OK, related to 2.) I have good news and bad news. Bad news is that after a closer look it's very, very tight and I was able to actually do "something", i.e. not booting the Falcon anymore even in 030 mode (!). Good news is that it's not permanent, fortunately the PicoPSU wouldn't output anything stupid. So yes, please isolate the top with a tape or something unless you're going to get a heart attack. :)

Btw, Atari Falcon 030 User Group.
Last edited by mikro on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 1st1 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:45 am

Except for your mechanic / electric safety complains I totally agree with the start post. The ct60e fitted well into my Falcon, but I havent't checked yet if the board is absolutelly horizontally ontop of the Falcon board. I can't tell something about the top shield over a ct60e as my Falcon misses the left side of it. It looks like the previous owner of the machine also had a ct6x inside, but gave it away separately. So another task for me will be to think about shielding.

Lack of documentation and software instruction is also the thing I had to fight with, and still not finalized, I had to ask several questions which would have not been to ask if there was more documentation. I still fight with software issues, see my thread opened yesterday. viewtopic.php?f=97&t=31393 Can you please check if your Falcon behaves the same way as mine on power on/off as I describe there? Maybe I have to try the same of PicoPSU you have, mine is different (it can support up to 160W).
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby Sturm » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:51 am

Did not try to put the RF shield back on, since i'm still waiting for my cpu fan. But do you need it with a pico psu since you're using a dc adapter? I'm no tech, but i'm wondering if the pico produces any interference on its own compared to the old psu?

If you want to put insulation tape on the RF shield, the problem is that you will cover the holes on it, and it could be problematic for the cpu cooling.

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby mzry » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:10 pm

With point 1, I noticed the same thing. I haven't fully pressed down the bottom connector because like you said, it would warp the PCB. Mine is half in, which still works perfectly. I doubt it would cause any performance issue. But you're right I think the design should have taken that into account and made the bottom connector taller.

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 10p6 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:05 pm

mzry wrote:With point 1, I noticed the same thing. I haven't fully pressed down the bottom connector because like you said, it would warp the PCB. Mine is half in, which still works perfectly. I doubt it would cause any performance issue. But you're right I think the design should have taken that into account and made the bottom connector taller.



If you look at the upper female header on the CT60e, it looks like they already raised that one twice as they did the bottom one. It would have been better if they had not extended the upper one as that would have saved them money, and also leveled the board out better.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:23 am

Expansion header base not level? STFD!
No wonder that damned metal screwdriver kept rolling onto the pass through pins on my Afterburner!
I know everyone is excited to "fit" everything into a stock case, but if not noticed, kind of hard finding a case from 25 years ago that doesn't have a hole or two. Try fitting an Afterburner, NOVA ATI MACH 64, Expose and PC Speed on one Falcon. You'd pop your little Pico just powering up!
Seriously, everyone take great care and time, it's not like Federated will ever open again.

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:14 pm

10p6 wrote:1. Note the connectors on the Falcon and CT60e are not level (From top of Falcon PCB to the bottom of CT60 PCB). For instance the lower expansion port connector has a total height of 13.25mm (Falcon and CT60e connectors), the upper expansion port is 16mm) and the power connector (CT60e to Falcon) is 14.6mm.


In both my Falcons both expansion connectors have the same height. The distance from top of Falcon PCB to underside of CT60e PCB is 15.5mm at both connectors.

However, the power connector is 0.8mm lower at 14.7mm. To be honest I'm not sure if this matters, but just in case I'll shim the connector on the CT60e.

10p6 wrote:then making things worse, on the ATX adapter side, the PSU is causing the CT60e to now flex in another direction (see below.)


Yes, there should be a spacer between the CT and motherboard at this point. Preferably around the leftmost case pillar. Also, since the original PSU bracket is now gone there should be shims above the mounting holes where the top case pillars go. Because without these the pillars are ~1mm too short.

I'm going to 3D-print a supporting bracket here.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:50 am

joska wrote:I'm going to 3D-print a supporting bracket here.


ct60e support.png


I printed two of these. They go between the CT and the motherboard, and are held in place by the top case pillars. It does wonders for the CT PCB stability, no flexing at all. They also shim the top case pillars by 1mm, making up for the removed PSU bracket which normally does this.

I've also cut away the tabs on the CT power connector to make it easier to insert and remove the CT.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby troed » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:07 am

joska wrote:
joska wrote:I'm going to 3D-print a supporting bracket here.


ct60e support.png

I printed two of these. They go between the CT and the motherboard, and are held in place by the top case pillars. It does wonders for the CT PCB stability, no flexing at all. They also shim the top case pillars by 1mm, making up for the removed PSU bracket which normally does this.

I've also cut away the tabs on the CT power connector to make it easier to insert and remove the CT.


Please upload the .stl to Youmagine and link here? :)

/Troed

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby rian_ata » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:11 am

joska wrote:
joska wrote:I'm going to 3D-print a supporting bracket here.


I printed two of these. They go between the CT and the motherboard, and are held in place by the top case pillars. It does wonders for the CT PCB stability, no flexing at all. They also shim the top case pillars by 1mm, making up for the removed PSU bracket which normally does this.

I've also cut away the tabs on the CT power connector to make it easier to insert and remove the CT.


Could you share your 3D print design and maybe perhaps post some photos to see how it looks?

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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:17 am

troed wrote:Please upload the .stl to Youmagine and link here? :)/Troed


I don't have a Youmagine account, but here's the stl.

CT60e spacer.zip
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Last edited by joska on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:25 am

rian_ata wrote:Could you share your 3D print design and maybe perhaps post some photos to see how it looks?


Quite hard to get a decent photo of the stuff underneath the CT :) Here's a small photo of the switch/power socket I'm working on though.

switches.jpg

CT60e buttons.jpg


I'm making a bracket for these and the cover for the old power inlet. The bracket is fixed to the spacers, so nothing is attached to the case itself.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby fidzen » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:30 pm

joska wrote:
rian_ata wrote:Could you share your 3D print design and maybe perhaps post some photos to see how it looks?


Quite hard to get a decent photo of the stuff underneath the CT :) Here's a small photo of the switch/power socket I'm working on though.

switches.jpg
CT60e buttons.jpg

I'm making a bracket for these and the cover for the old power inlet. The bracket is fixed to the spacers, so nothing is attached to the case itself.


Nice work there!
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby wongck » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:44 pm

Wow, a 3D printer is real useful.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 1st1 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:24 am

Great! Would you offer the parts for others as well? Or upload it on shapeway, that everybody can order it there?

A version for supervidel would also be nice, with VGA outlet in the former power plug hole.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:45 am

1st1 wrote:Great! Would you offer the parts for others as well? Or upload it on shapeway, that everybody can order it there?


I will upload the files when the design is finished. I've got atleast one more iteration before it's finished.

1st1 wrote:A version for supervidel would also be nice, with VGA outlet in the former power plug hole.


If somebody has a SuperVidel for me I'll be more than happy to make this :D
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:13 am

wongck wrote:Wow, a 3D printer is real useful.


Not to mention a lot of fun. Most fun thing I've bought since I got the .44 Magnum :D
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:20 am

I'm quite happy with the result.

CT60e support and buttons.jpg

CT60e installed.jpg

CT60e buttons.jpg


I've made a couple of small adjustments that I need to test, when that's done I'll upload the design.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby 1st1 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:36 am

Please impement something what fixes the ct60e at the rear end.

Here a simple and a maybe a bit more complicated idea:

ct60esupport.jpg


one of these holders at the left, and one at the right side. Version 2 preferable.
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Re: CT60e, Not measuring up.

Postby joska » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:46 am

1st1 wrote:Please impement something what fixes the ct60e at the rear end.


Why would that be needed?

If it's needed, it could be done very easily with a sleeve on the top case pillar. The CT60 would then be locked in place whenever the top case is installed.
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