CTX60

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Re: CTX60

Postby SoundDoctor » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:24 pm

@ Dal,

I wondered that. Especially when you consider the left side of the card is the loaded side. Maybe it's an either / or option?
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Re: CTX60

Postby wongck » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:59 am

There are the CTPCI IDE header ??
How about using SATA instead. SATA 1 would be still OK if not SATA 3.
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Re: CTX60

Postby EvilFranky » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:27 am

Cool looking board.

I agree with Wong, why not SATA of some description? Surely a smaller footprint?

IMHO I'm just not sure about yet another Falcon 060 accelerator, yes I guess there may be a few guys who never bought a CT60/3 on it's final run but looking at this board it appears to be practically a full computer stuck onto a Falcon BUS...why?

Where does it stop? What is the point in needing a Falcon any more for this board? With only a few more chips it could be a full computer in itself.

I know there is talk of this as well now, a full computer based on CT60 design.

Wouldn't another run of CT60/3's not be better for the current Falcon crowd...with maybe just a RJ45 added (as in reality this is what people crave the most, network connectivity, just look around this forum for those hunting for NetUSBee...) rather than go through the development costs of designing and obtaining prototypes of this new expansion...leaving time and money to develop a Falcon replacement?

Personally I'd prefer to see a new board based on the above design, with the added DSP...and along with a 060 and an ARM CPU of some description (plentiful, fast and cheap). At the end of the day this is the future of CPU tech, ColdFire is awesome and the ACP rocks...but where is the next CPU? Basing it on ITX would mean commissioning a case would be easier and cheaper or buyers could use any generic small form factor case. I'm thinking Mac Mini size/style but with the Fuji rather than the Apple :mrgreen:

Any way that's just some ramblings, what's peoples thoughts?

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Re: CTX60

Postby mdivancic » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:57 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:@ Dal,

I wondered that. Especially when you consider the left side of the card is the loaded side. Maybe it's an either / or option?

From the looks of it, either/or would be my guess.

Looks like I've got to start saving again. Now if we could only get something like this for the TT...
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Re: CTX60

Postby Rodolphe » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:00 pm

SoundDoctor wrote:Looking at the dimensions it should be possible to incorporate a power inlet connector somewhere above the parallel port. It's a really neat design. There are some good and inexpensive connectors available so long as they can cope with the amps the board pulls. Though getting the cables past the SuperVidel could be a problem, unless the power molex was on the underside of the board and the cables were routed under the CTX60. Do you have any data on the projected power consumption of the board Rodolphe? This would be a great opportunity to come up with a good external mini ATX PSU custom adapted solution to finish the whole thing off.

I used Bing Translator so....

'to see, otherwise it will be to add at the end of a slick, but it only enchants me groundwater'...

...sounds exciting ;-)


The objective is to use a picoPSU as internal PSU...
The pico PSU 120 W is ok inside because it plugs on molex 20 pins and takes no volume.
http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-120-102W-power-kit

Forget ATX PSU for internal !
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Re: CTX60

Postby CiH » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:07 pm

IMHO I'm just not sure about yet another Falcon 060 accelerator, yes I guess there may be a few guys who never bought a CT60/3 on it's final run but looking at this board it appears to be practically a full computer stuck onto a Falcon BUS...why?


Rodolphe made the case for doing this earlier in the thread. 1. There are people on the waiting list for CT60 even now. 2. The design work on CTX60 is a necessary preliminary to the standalone PX60 and will form a large part of that project too.

Personally, I've got all the CT60 and CTPCI that I currently need, so I'm not directly interested in the CTX60 personally. However, the PX60 might well be of interest to me :-)
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Re: CTX60

Postby Rodolphe » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:09 pm

Dal wrote:What a great design. I especially like the position of the ports and cf slot so potentially easy access (after surgery). Nice to have 5v PCI slot too.

Will the PCI slot sit higher than the PCIe slot? I can't visualise how both slots can be next to each other and have the cards laying parallel to the CTX60.


You cannot use 2 risers for both PCI & PCIe !
So you use PCIe or PCI card.

The exception : install one card (PCI or PCIe) on the FDD area with a flex riser ...
By example : you use a PCIe riser for a PCIe Radeon HD5450 and use a flex PCI riser for a PCI card (which function ?) on the FDD area (after you replaced the FDD by slime FDD version).
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Re: CTX60

Postby Rodolphe » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:16 pm

wongck wrote:There are the CTPCI IDE header ??
How about using SATA instead. SATA 1 would be still OK if not SATA 3.


If you look the block diagram, you will see the colors I use...
One IDE port is the one of the CTPCI (CTPCI color)...
The other is the Falcon IDE port !
The port on falcon is definitively abandonned ! You will not connect on it ! It will not be accessible....
With 030 mode, the access toi the falcon IDE port will rerouted to the new IDe port on CTX60 !
Like this you have same devices on same positions with 030 & 060 mode !
The CF loader is usable too from 030 mode !

About SATA : How about using a driver for SATA chip and devices ?
HD Driver ?? hum, you are dreaming...
Forget SATA....and I do not see the interrest because we can use easely many IDE devices that are low cost on ebay... 2.5 IDE HDD are easy to find...
SATA will bring nothing more even no more speed ! SATA chip has a cost....and again, we have no software on atari for that !
If you do the driver, ok I may change my opinion...
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Last edited by Rodolphe on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CTX60

Postby Rodolphe » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:33 pm

EvilFranky wrote:Cool looking board.

I agree with Wong, why not SATA of some description? Surely a smaller footprint?

IMHO I'm just not sure about yet another Falcon 060 accelerator, yes I guess there may be a few guys who never bought a CT60/3 on it's final run but looking at this board it appears to be practically a full computer stuck onto a Falcon BUS...why?

Where does it stop? What is the point in needing a Falcon any more for this board? With only a few more chips it could be a full computer in itself.

I know there is talk of this as well now, a full computer based on CT60 design.

Wouldn't another run of CT60/3's not be better for the current Falcon crowd...with maybe just a RJ45 added (as in reality this is what people crave the most, network connectivity, just look around this forum for those hunting for NetUSBee...) rather than go through the development costs of designing and obtaining prototypes of this new expansion...leaving time and money to develop a Falcon replacement?

Personally I'd prefer to see a new board based on the above design, with the added DSP...and along with a 060 and an ARM CPU of some description (plentiful, fast and cheap). At the end of the day this is the future of CPU tech, ColdFire is awesome and the ACP rocks...but where is the next CPU? Basing it on ITX would mean commissioning a case would be easier and cheaper or buyers could use any generic small form factor case. I'm thinking Mac Mini size/style but with the Fuji rather than the Apple :mrgreen:

Any way that's just some ramblings, what's peoples thoughts?


as I already explained, there are many people who use a falcon and want to buy a 060 booster... I will furnish the board for these people...
By the way the design of CTX60 is a major part of the design for a stand-alone new board (PX60)...

I cannot continue with the actual design of the CT60/63...the PCB has many problems like 5V FLASH that is very difficult to find, DS1085 that needs a modul PCB to be added...and the size and position in the falcon that is not very good ...
Integrating RJ45 and USB is the base of the new design...

Basically CTX60 is CT60 + CTPCI + RJ45 + USB on a single lower cost, lower place board... And so, this is the good opportunity to modify the fitting of the board and add some feature like I2C chips to better control & flexibility on settings... The I2C clokc generator has 4 independant outputs that
allow to fine tune 060 + SDRAM, PCI, Falcon mb clocks...

I'm agree with the DSP and a new board...it will arrive...

I'm agree too with CF : the V5 will never arrive...if you have a good look on the several CF roadmap that Motorola & Freescale published : always delayed at a future date and will finnaly be abandonned because freescale will no more support CF one day, actually strongly migrating to ARM (again agree with you) : so betwen a 060 100% compatible and a CF that is not 100%, considerinf that both will be nextly on the same status as 'no more produces but easy to find on brokers, I definitvely prefer the pure 68060 ...

The PX60 is planned on u-ATX or ITX format, sure...

A SO-DIMM 200 pin socket for ARM CPU card is sonething I'd like to propose... but at this point, why not put an integrated PPC chip ?
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Re: CTX60

Postby EvilFranky » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:53 pm

I'm glad you agree with some of my ideas Rodolphe and of course thanks for your continued efforts in supporting the Atari community :cheers:

I'm pleased to see you like the idea of ARM on the board also, I think my points are quite valid and you have pretty much confirmed that with your response.

Pure 060 with a supporting ARM!!! Seriously cool 8)

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Re: CTX60

Postby wongck » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:27 pm

Rodolphe wrote:With 030 mode, the access toi the falcon IDE port will rerouted to the new IDe port on CTX60 !
Like this you have same devices on same positions with 030 & 060 mode !
The CF loader is usable too from 030 mode !

This is great to be able to use CTPCI IDE on 030.
my current problem with the CTPCI IDE is that I cannot boot to 030 mode. This new design solve this problem.

Rodolphe wrote:About SATA : How about using a driver for SATA chip and devices ?
HD Driver ?? hum, you are dreaming...
Forget SATA....and I do not see the interrest because we can use easely many IDE devices that are low cost on ebay... 2.5 IDE HDD are easy to find...
SATA will bring nothing more even no more speed ! SATA chip has a cost....and again, we have no software on atari for that !

I don't think SATA will increase in any speed actually.
Sure you can get IDE 2.5" now, but since 2010 all notebooks are already on SATA.
I am thinking of only using old eBay IDE 2.5" device that are already 4-5 years old.
How long more do you think those will last?
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Re: CTX60

Postby SoundDoctor » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Rodolphe wrote:
SoundDoctor wrote:Looking at the dimensions it should be possible to incorporate a power inlet connector somewhere above the parallel port. It's a really neat design. There are some good and inexpensive connectors available so long as they can cope with the amps the board pulls. Though getting the cables past the SuperVidel could be a problem, unless the power molex was on the underside of the board and the cables were routed under the CTX60. Do you have any data on the projected power consumption of the board Rodolphe? This would be a great opportunity to come up with a good external mini ATX PSU custom adapted solution to finish the whole thing off.

I used Bing Translator so....

'to see, otherwise it will be to add at the end of a slick, but it only enchants me groundwater'...

...sounds exciting ;-)


The objective is to use a picoPSU as internal PSU...
The pico PSU 120 W is ok inside because it plugs on molex 20 pins and takes no volume.
http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-120-102W-power-kit

Forget ATX PSU for internal !



The CTX60 is a great design Rodolphe. I was looking online last night and it seems there are also 160W and 200w versions available that are no lager than the 120W version. They would give an extra bit of muscle. I'm thinking of bus powered USB devices adding to the load. Presumably these run almost cold as all the hard work is done in the external AC-DC PSU.
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Re: CTX60

Postby SoundDoctor » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:33 pm

wongck wrote:
Rodolphe wrote:With 030 mode, the access toi the falcon IDE port will rerouted to the new IDe port on CTX60 !
Like this you have same devices on same positions with 030 & 060 mode !
The CF loader is usable too from 030 mode !

This is great to be able to use CTPCI IDE on 030.
my current problem with the CTPCI IDE is that I cannot boot to 030 mode. This new design solve this problem.

Rodolphe wrote:About SATA : How about using a driver for SATA chip and devices ?
HD Driver ?? hum, you are dreaming...
Forget SATA....and I do not see the interrest because we can use easely many IDE devices that are low cost on ebay... 2.5 IDE HDD are easy to find...
SATA will bring nothing more even no more speed ! SATA chip has a cost....and again, we have no software on atari for that !

I don't think SATA will increase in any speed actually.
Sure you can get IDE 2.5" now, but since 2010 all notebooks are already on SATA.
I am thinking of only using old eBay IDE 2.5" device that are already 4-5 years old.
How long more do you think those will last?


There are a few low cost 2.5" SATA drive to IDE bus bridge adapters available. They are 44pin and pull the power from the IDE bus. 500 gig limit. They have a host controller so the drive should be transparent to HD driver. Admittedly there aren't many, most go IDE drive to SATA port but they do exist. See an example here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SATA-2-5-IDE-ad ... B0041SNGV2
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Re: CTX60

Postby Dal » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:54 pm

Implementing an IDE to Sata bridge would be a good idea for some element of future proofing. As Wong says, most IDE drives available nowadays are already old.
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Re: CTX60

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:35 am

SoundDoctor wrote:There are a few low cost 2.5" SATA drive to IDE bus bridge adapters available. They are 44pin and pull the power from the IDE bus. 500 gig limit. They have a host controller so the drive should be transparent to HD driver. Admittedly there aren't many, most go IDE drive to SATA port but they do exist. See an example here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/SATA-2-5-IDE-ad ... B0041SNGV2


Yes, they do indeed exist !!!
I have already successfully used SATA on my Falcon since 3 years back, as can be seen on my web page here.
However, a word of warning, as Matthias (FB) have found out, nowadays these converter mostly supports UDMA mode and so few can be used on the bird.
I also have one for the bigger 40 pin IDE. So for me I am settled and ready to extend the life of the bird as of today.

Of course the new CT60 will also contain SD/CF & USB. Of which storage you can use.
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Re: CTX60

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:44 am

Dal wrote:Implementing an IDE to Sata bridge would be a good idea for some element of future proofing.

Yes, that's the key word -- future proofing it. Thanks Dal :wink:.
How else would you use the Falcon otherwise ?
Look at what the CT60/CTPCI done for us so far. We can run cool programs like Netsurf which allows us access to the newer web sites.
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Re: CTX60

Postby Rodolphe » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:57 am

wongck wrote:
Dal wrote:Implementing an IDE to Sata bridge would be a good idea for some element of future proofing.

Yes, that's the key word -- future proofing it. Thanks Dal :wink:.
How else would you use the Falcon otherwise ?
Look at what the CT60/CTPCI done for us so far. We can run cool programs like Netsurf which allows us access to the newer web sites.


There is a PCI connector, so it will be possible to connect a PCI-SATA card and let you developp a driver...
One the driver is done I may add the chip on the next board : PX60.

What must be done :
- Choose a PCI-SATA card with a Sii chip (Silicon Image) or other (be carefull to choose one that is linux supported to get some sources to developp the driver).
- developp the driver
- contact Uwe Seimet to check with him if need some adds in HDDriver to support the new chip + driver...

When all this is done BEFORE I finish design of the PX60, ok I add the chip on PX60...
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Re: CTX60

Postby wongck » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:14 am

Rodolphe wrote:What must be done :
- Choose a PCI-SATA card with a Sii chip (Silicon Image) or other (be carefull to choose one that is linux supported to get some sources to developp the driver).
- developp the driver
- contact Uwe Seimet to check with him if need some adds in HDDriver to support the new chip + driver...

When all this is don BEFORE I finish design of the PX60, ok I add the chip on PX60...


Yes, this will be able to provide great speed improvement using the PCI bus.
But it must be done quickly by someone who knows all these stuff.... how many in this forum can do that?
I don't have any clue of this.... else I would not say this knowing how difficult it is. :wink:

Well, may be a quicker way is to somehow make a interface like those IDE-SATA converter, because one side just outputs to IDE and looks like IDE to the Falcon. No need any new drivers or modification of hddriver. Sure you loose 1 or 2 IDE ports. May be remove the 40 pin IDE all together, because now you can add SATA2/3 harddisk (can be 3.5" or 2,5" version) and it looks like an IDE. Sure we bluff ourself saying it is SATA but still running at fast CTPCI IDE speed, :angel:
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Re: CTX60

Postby OL » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:57 pm

joska wrote:
Rodolphe wrote:Firebee is not so powerfull !
Didier and others developpers who tried FB can confirme that memory accesses are 2 times slower than on CT60 !
They do not know why but this is a fact !


Well... I don't know about that. Tests performed by those "other developpers" indicates that a 100MHz CT60 is about 30% faster than the FireBee when accessing DRAM. However, the FireBee is about 100% faster than a 100MHz 060 when accessing the data cache. As the data cache is normally heavily used, the FireBee will in real life be substantially faster than a CT60.

Don't get me wrong, I think the CT60 (and the new projects you announce here) are really cool, but it's advantage over the FireBee is not raw speed.

Btw I'm looking forward to the PX60. I will probably buy one when/if it becomes reality.


Hum it's not so simple, in real use Firebee is between 10% to 50% faster (I said in real use because most of software not need really speed because they wait all the time, but sometime it's usefull like read MP3, video do 3D, so around 30% for this and most of this use never stay in cache) of course accessing cache is 100% faster on coldfire 200Mhz rather CT60 100Mhz this is only the difference of frequency. Firebee is around 27% slower to read TTRam memory and 53% slower to write, I think this explain why I said the Firebee is between 10% to 50% faster than the CT60 it depend highly if the program need to write in memory intensively or not. On CT60 the speed to read and write is directly proportionnal to the frequency, this is far not the case on firebee and nobody know why.

The second point that all forgot, this results are perform only if the program is fully native this is far not the case if you run a 68K program, in this case the result is far more slower and in all case you can't run program with 68881/2 or 060 FPU instructions for the moment.

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Re: CTX60

Postby dml » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:31 pm

OL wrote:Firebee is around 27% slower to read TTRam memory and 53% slower to write, I think this explain why I said the Firebee is between 10% to 50% faster than the CT60 it depend highly if the program need to write in memory intensively or not. On CT60 the speed to read and write is directly proportionnal to the frequency, this is far not the case on firebee and nobody know why.
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I'd hazard a guess that this difference is related to the intended markets for the two devices. The 68060 was designed to continue the CPU lineage and spends a lot of silicon on superscalar pipelining / concurrency in the face of a possibly slower and/or async and/or multi-mode external memory interface.

The ColdFire was intended as a lowish power, high speed microcontroller - it probably trades significant silicon complexity (particularly the bus-facing performance stuff which would not be missed in most microcontroller environments) for higher clock rate.

In other words, I'd expect the ColdFire to win on internal performance, and the 060 to have the edge with complex overlapping read/write activity and so on - up to a point.

This is just my guess - there may be other reasons!

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Re: CTX60

Postby calimero » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:19 am

maybe off-topic but I am curious:

is it possible to implement 68060 in FGPA? e.g. Altera Cyclone III (inside FireBee) - complete dev. board cost around 100$. link

and how fast/slow would it be?
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Re: CTX60

Postby lp » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:19 am

You could actually implement the 68030+MMU instead and have better software compatibility. Not much Atari software requires an 060. Its my understanding the Cyclone 3 could manage an 030 at about 40mhz. . It cannot pull off an 060, not even close. There is a Cyclone 4 and I believe even a 5 now, but I don't know how they compare to version 3.

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Re: CTX60

Postby dml » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:02 pm

calimero wrote:maybe off-topic but I am curious:

is it possible to implement 68060 in FGPA? e.g. Altera Cyclone III (inside FireBee) - complete dev. board cost around 100$. link

and how fast/slow would it be?


Depends on whether you mean implementing the instruction set (i.e. the virtual side of the chip which is visible through reference material) or the internal logic (the physical side where the optimisations live, and which is probably not public).

To get the performance benefits of the 060 design you'll need access to the latter since the former isn't much different from an 040, and both are scaled back from an 030+88x. The internal logic is probably pretty complicated and will consume a lot of silicon - perhaps current FPGAs have enough room, you'd need to look at transistor counts etc. I think the main blocker though is access to the design, which I expect is limited to Freescale employees.

You could ignore the original design and just adopt current state of the art techniques (swapping the microcontroller 'flexibility' features for max performance in a fixed environment). That seems like an awful lot of work though. :)

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Re: CTX60

Postby alexh » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:16 pm

calimero wrote:is it possible to implement 68060 in FGPA? e.g. Altera Cyclone III

Not with today's FPGA's and get the same performance of a 68060 overclocked to 90MHz for the same price.

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Re: CTX60

Postby calimero » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:18 pm

alexh wrote:
calimero wrote:is it possible to implement 68060 in FGPA? e.g. Altera Cyclone III

Not with today's FPGA's and get the same performance of a 68060 overclocked to 90MHz for the same price.

yeah... I just ask that :)
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