Problem with Hades - no picture

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Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:39 pm

Hi,

I have some problem with my hades.

Hades worked and how a certain moment switched to the monitor to work, I noticed that there is no image of the screen I restart computer, unfortunately, nothing helped, the disc is working but no picture on the monitor, I checked the card including it in the PC and graphics card is OK.
Do you have any idea what could have happened and what can be done ?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby lp » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:15 am

My hades no longer works. However, back when it did boot up with a blank screen it was simply the cpu caches. The caches must be off before the nova driver loaded, because the driver was not 060/cache clean. I had to place a small prg in the auto folder just before the nova driver that disabled the cpu caches and another small prg after the nova driver to re-enable the cpu caches. These little programs can be found in ozk's mmu tools archive.

http://assemsoft.atari.org/files/setmmu-0.7b.tar.gz

I am not sure if this is your exact problem, but it's all I know and I still miss my Hades. ;)

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:15 pm

Hi,

Ok thanks I will be try with this soft and I inform you.
Because your Hades does not work if you tried to contact with Fredi Aschwanden ?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby lp » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:19 pm

Fredi no longer repairs any Hades, he also cannot supply updated firmware. Basically he is done with it and moved on to the firebee. However, it's amazing how long he did support it, so I understand and respect his position.

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:26 pm

Did you try removing all pci cards except the video card and reboot? Did you try to move the video card to a different slot and boot?

Did you try booting from a minimal floppy image with just necessary files?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:40 pm

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Did you try removing all pci cards except the video card and reboot? Did you try to move the video card to a different slot and boot?

Yes I tried to remove all PCI cards without video and different PCI slots but It is the same

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Did you try booting from a minimal floppy image with just necessary files?


What do you mean ? what files should be on a floppy disk?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:15 pm

Well, the floppy idea is not so good I guess. How do you know hdd is working? Could it just be spinning? Can you hear it seeking? Does your floppy light come on?

Maybe unplug the floppy and/or hdd and see if the hades boot logo comes up? You might need a 15khz monitor though since the driver is not loaded. I am just throwing ideas out there. Does the video monitor indicate sync signal or nothing?

Or you could load the video drivers on a floppy and just auto boot from it and see if it comes up?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:18 am

HI,


in this moment I can say that:

When I turn on computer, I know testing memory after a while, press any key on the keyboard, hear the click keyboard and then begins to spin the disc (LED on the drive flashes) which starts hddriver then perhaps Xboot as soot, then press CTR + Q and starts executing the last setting.

Tomorow evening I will check again

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:12 am

Ok, good luck. Let us know how it goes.

On my hades I use a LCD monitor which can sync 15khz, so I get the hades logo at boot. But if your monitor is 31.5khz only, you have to wait for the video driver to activate. If something is wrong with the startup files, then you may never get a picture because the video driver never loads properly. So if you can use a 15khz monitor to test that would be best.

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby lp » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:07 am

When mine came up blank, I could wait until the HD activity stopped and if I pressed some keys the key-click sound could be heard. That's how I knew mine booted to the desktop, but only the video was messed up.

If it was working ok, and now its not. Then I would be trying a different vga cable and a different monitor first, then lastly a different video card. Finding another video card could prove challenging though.

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:29 pm

Hi,

Today evening I tried once again.

lp: I write to floppy disk Emulator.prg, Emulator.bib, STA_VDI.PRG, Sta_vdi.bib, cache_off.prg,
How do you think that should be the order of charging because I do not remember now. I noticed only when I press the ALT key while booting is something load from a floppy disk but it does nothing, no effect on the monitor.
I tried with different vga cable and monitor but no change.

TheNameOfTheGame : I never used and do not have a monitor 15kHz

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:13 pm

Hello,

I have from my friend two video cards on ISA bus. There are ATI MACH64 and ET4000. I plug MACH64 and the hades works again. I think there is a problem on PCI bridge.
But now I have not a driver for this version of video card. If someone has and uses the card to the ISA connector ?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby frank.lukas » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:33 pm

Is there not a Nova Driver for the ATI MACH64 ...
fancy Atari Musik anDA Dance "Agare Hinu Harukana" 1998 ATARI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX10fxb5eYE

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:53 pm

Here is all I could find on my hard drive. Don't know if anything will help and please be careful you don't damge any hardware. Never tried a ISA video card in the Hades, but you can look at the files and see if they would help.

Hades drivers and Panther/2 drivers. Panther/2 uses ISA cards so maybe you can find something of use in there. But again, I have no idea if they will work.

HadesFiles.zip

PantherFiles.zip
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:17 am

Hello,
I have one more question if ATI MACH64 working on a PC if it means that it is 100% good, and must work inserted into the Hades. However, if no image on Hades that is, the trouble is PCI connector in Hades ?

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:37 am

Well you tried different slots on the Hades so it probably isn't the connector, right?

If you boot the with ISA video card can you then access any other PCI devices? Do you have NIC or sound card you can test out to make sure PCI is functioning?

If it is, can you plug in the PCI and ISA video cards at the same time and get video on the ISA to the monitor? I don't know if that is possible but if so then you could run the PCI tools and get a dump of what the system is seeing with your PCI card slots.

*Edit* Attached pcidump and pci_info programs if you need them.

pci_info_05afr.zip
pcidump.zip
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:26 am

Looked at some files I have on the Hades and found a document which had this part in it:

Developer Documentation for the Hades as of 24.6.1996
=====================================================================
...
...
...
Operating system
*********************************************************************
The operating system on the Hades board is a modified TOS 3.06. The
operating system is located on 4 EPROMs. When booting, the operating
system searches for an ET4000 graphics card, first on the PCI-Bus, then on
the ISA-Bus. If an ET4000 graphics card is recognised, the output will be
routed through it.
...
...
...


So the Hades looks for video card first on PCI then falls back to ISA. So if you have the PCI and ISA card in at the same time and it boots through the ISA card, then definitely it is not even recognizing the PCI card on the bus.

Same document:

Addresses:
Slot Configuration I/O Memory
---------------------------------------------------------------
PCI1 $A008'xxxx $Bxxx'xxxx $8000'0000-9FFF'FFFF
PCI2 $A004'xxxx $Bxxx'xxxx $8000'0000-9FFF'FFFF
PCI3 $A002'xxxx $Bxxx'xxxx $8000'0000-9FFF'FFFF
PCI4 $A001'xxxx $Bxxx'xxxx $8000'0000-9FFF'FFFF

Bus Width : 32 Bit resp. 64 Bit
Configuration Size : 64 Kilobytes
I/O Size : 256 Megabytes
Memory Size : 512 Megabytes
Burstmode : No
Transfer Rate : 3-? cycles
Cacheable : partially possible



ISA-Bus
*********************************************************************
DMA is not supported on the ISA-Bus. All Interrupt signals of the slots
are joined together amd the STMFP is acknowledged.

Slot STMFP-connection
------------------------------------
ISA1 IO3 Pin 28
ISA2 IO7 Pin 32

With byte access in the I/O area $FFF3'0000 - $FFF3'FFFF, by transferring
the reading and writing of and after SD0-7, and not only low byte access
but also high byte access. e.g. This is necessary for ET4000 graphics
cards with NVDI.
The rest of this area will be given out by the writing of the byte on the
other half-word.

I/O Address : $FFF0'0000-$FFF7'FFFF
Memory Address : $FF00'0000-$FF7F'FFFF
Bus Width : 16 Bit
I/O Size : 8x64 Kilobytes mirrored
Memory Size : 8 Megabytes
Burstmode : No
Transfer Rate : 5-? cycles
Cacheable : Normally no, but possible


Maybe some bad RAM is only touched with PCI card? Might boot with the ISA card and run a complete RAM test.

Something to think about.

Here is the document so can look at it...

MANUALE.zip
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:13 am

Hello,

Today i tasted both card I plug VGA on PCI on all slots and ISA card and other card soundblaster and ethernet. I run HAdes in AUTO folder I have only PCI_INFO.PRG and PCI_BIOS.PRG.
First test only ISA card for video and both ethernet and music cards on PCI. Please look at picture
Zdjęcie-0042.jpg


Other tet I plug VGA card on PCI please look at
on this test I plug VGA card into second slot and stop it no run TOS
Zdjęcie-0039.jpg


When I plug into the first slot not found this card

WHen I plug video card to 3 or 4 slot is OK (I think)
Zdjęcie-0041.jpg


At the end please loot at this picture, on second slot Is plug Music card and 3 slot Ethernet.
Zdjęcie-0036.jpg


On the all test when I plug video cable to PCI VGA card black screen no initilization.
What do you think, Is it mean teh PCI bridge is OK, maybe these VGA card is bad !!!
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:18 am

I'm sorry but the pictures mistak loaded (wrong order), but I hope that something will explain

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:24 pm

Ok, what type of PCI video card are you using?

On the lines with "Display Controller (VGA compatible)" notice the VendorID and DeviceID"? Those don't look good.

For example your NIC and Audio card seem to be recognized fine. See the DeviceID=8139 and DeviceID=1371? That is good.

The lines in your pictures that do show Display Controller entries aren't valid. They show:

Slot | VendorID | DeviceID | Description
-----+----------+----------+------------------------------------
..
..
[03] | 0x0000 | 0x0002 | Display Controller


Interestingly, all your Slot [01] entries have VendorID 0000 and DeviceID 0008. Those are bad IDs.

For example, my PCI list is:

PCI BIOS Extension Rev. 1.13d / 06.04.2002q
Copyright ½ 1997-2002 by Markus Fichtenbauer
in dedication to Pris

PCI_CONF not installed, scanning devices...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Slot | VendorID | DeviceID | Description
-----+----------+----------+------------------------------------
[01] | 0x1002 | 0x4758 | Display controller (VGA compatible)
[02] | 0x10EC | 0x8139 | Network controller (Ethernet)
[03] | 0xFFFF | | no device
[04] | 0x1274 | 0x1371 | Multimedia device (Audio)
PCI-BIOS driver interface installed
overall 18678 bytes resident in memory


See my DeviceID for Display Controller (4578)? Look here http://pcidatabase.com/vendor_details.php?id=240. You can see my device is the second in the list: Mach64.

On your pictures you have variously:

Code: Select all

[01] | 0x0000 | 0x0008 | Device built before Class Code definitions | device requests more than 4GB memory!!
[02] | 0x0000 | 0x0004 | Device built before Class Code definitions | device requests more than 4GB memory!!
[02] | 0x0000 | 0x0004 | Device does not fit in any defi...


This is not normal. There is a problem on your PCI subsystem. You see the Display Controller never gets populated on Slot [01] because of this. Slot [01] get corrupted somehow everytime.

Here is a section from http://www.roma1.infn.it/SIC/_OLD_documentazione/unix/migr/digital-unix-doc/DOCUMENTATION/HTML/AA-Q7RQC-TE_html/pcibus5.html that explains it better:

4.1.1 The vendor_id, device_id, and rev_id Members

The PCI bus configuration code matches device drivers to PCI devices by using the Vendor ID, Device ID, Revision ID, Class Code, Subsystem Vendor ID, and Subsystem ID device registers in the device's configuration space header. You can determine which device registers participate in selecting a driver by creating PCI_Option entries in a sysconfigtab file fragment, as discussed in Section 4.2. Section 5.3 describes the mechanism by which the PCI bus configuration code identifies the driver associated with a given device.

This section describes the Vendor ID, Device ID, and Revision ID device registers. Section 4.1.4 describes the Class Code device register. Section 4.1.11 describes the Subsystem Vendor ID and Subsystem ID registers.

The contents of the Vendor ID device register, copied to the vendor_id member of the pci_config_hdr data structure by the PCI bus configuration code, identifies the manufacturer of the device. Manufacturers can request a vendor ID to avoid conflict with other vendors. 0FFFFh is an invalid value for a vendor ID.

The Device ID device register, copied to the device_id member of the pci_config_hdr data structure by the PCI bus configuration code, identifies the specific PCI device. The device's manufacturer determines its device ID.

The Revision ID device register identifies a device-specific revision. The device's manufacturer determines its revision ID.


Can you boot with ISA card and run full comprehensive RAM test?

Also, can you boot with no PCI cards just the ISA video card and run PCI Bios and post the results?

ISA will never be as fast as PCI, but Idek Tramielski over at atari-home.de forum made you an ISA driver for the Mach64. He was very kind to make it up so quick. He said you may have to press a key before it shows the desktop and he is looking into it. Big thanks to Idek for this!
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Idek Tramielski » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:49 pm

Please be aware that this driver is untested and based on a couple of guesses. Feedback welcome!

Wolfgang

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:36 pm

Hi,

Thank you for your commitment
I am using on ISA bus ATI MACH64, If you want more details I can make a photo.
Loot at photo to all test of RAM
Zdjęcie-0044.jpg

Zdjęcie-0045.jpg

Additionally I remove all PCI card only video card and I made test, look at picture. I run Hades with CTRl key and run PCI-BIOS from TOS.
Zdjęcie-0046.jpg

Thank you very much Idek Tramielski for help. I will be test it.
Have I to start tests of a clean system, only in AUTO directory load: Emulator.prg, menu.prg and STA_VDI.prg. Is it enough to launch the Desktop for example, in 256 colors.
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:54 pm

Well I'm asking what the PCI video card is; is it a mach64 also?

Also if a slot is empty, then the VendorID should be 0xFFFF. See the PCI_BIOS document from Markus Fichtenbauer (attached - German). Section on Overview roughly translated:

To find out which cards are now connected to the PCI bus, you can read the Vendor ID in each of the existing system in the slots. The host system must therefore support accesses to the configuration areas not existing cards (no error message). Since it is not allowed for a Vendor ID value FFFFhex, it therefore is enough if the system hardware just returns this value when read accesses to the Configuration section not existing maps.

(i.e) empty slots

See also my pci_bios output:

PCI BIOS Extension Rev. 1.13d / 06.04.2002q
Copyright ½ 1997-2002 by Markus Fichtenbauer
in dedication to Pris

PCI_CONF not installed, scanning devices...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Slot | VendorID | DeviceID | Description
-----+----------+----------+------------------------------------
[01] | 0x1002 | 0x4758 | Display controller (VGA compatible)
[02] | 0x10EC | 0x8139 | Network controller (Ethernet)
[03] | 0xFFFF | | no device
[04] | 0x1274 | 0x1371 | Multimedia device (Audio)
PCI-BIOS driver interface installed
overall 18678 bytes resident in memory


Notice Slot [03] has VendorID 0xFFFF. This is the correct ID if a slot is empty. Since all your slots show VendorID 0x0000 even though empty this shows a malfunction somewhere.

Hades:
Image

PCI_BIOS.zip
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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:34 pm

I am not a hardware guru so am not sure what can cause this.

I think we need to get in touch with Markus Fichtenbauer or Fredi Aschwanden to ask about this.
Last edited by TheNameOfTheGame on Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Problem with Hades - no picture

Postby Kroll » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:46 pm

Hi,
Thank you for all information,
So I could suppose that something is wrong, that you think also that it is the failure of hardware, despite the well-recognized network card, so earlier I tried to install it (under MiNT) but I got the information:
Could not locate any RTL8138 cards - NOT INSTALLED!

Exactly the PCI video card is ATI MACH64 too, I think the same like you on the main chip I have it:
210888GX00
SGW*BNUAH01
A22DK9644
J636CAH
MALTA


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