Mint and CF card with Hades060

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Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:43 pm

Well after struggling unsuccessfully to get the network interface to work with Magic and MagicNet on my hades060 I have given up for now and decided to try Mint.

However, I want to move to a CF card when running Mint. So I picked up these items.

Image Image

Here they are installed. The IDE/CF adapter is jumpered to slave mode.

Image Image


Running HD Driver 9, the CF is seen.

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My question is what is the best scheme to partition this card for Mint?

Bear in mind I want to make this the master and disconnect the mechanical drive eventually. Also I would like to be able to access the CF card in Linux. Thanks.

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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:54 pm

If you want to access partitions in Linux, then best to go on TOS/DOS compatible partitioning. Unless your Linux has compiled TOS support in it's kernel, what is now pretty rare case, and hard to solve with newer Linux distros.
You can go on pure DOS partitioning - that will work fine in Mint, but in TOS not really. Additionally, it needs special, short partition to start Mint, so may be troublesome.
So, I say TOS/DOS partitioning, with 4x 512 MB partitions - latest will be shorter actually, as 2GB cards are always little under 2 GB. Then Mint install will be simple, and you can access everything from TOS and Linux, Mint.
There is one catch more: only latest Hddriver versions support more than 1 TOS/DOS compat. partition.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:01 am

Normally for me, I would make an removable media as FAT32, so that I can pop the card into another Linux or Windows PC.
But that means your Mint cannot be on the CF as it needs a TOS partition to boot ( or TOS/DOS partition).

FAT32 would allows long file name and this is really a requirements to transfers files in modern computer world.
( requirements may vary due to your needs - for me I look at source codes and modern sources uses LFN).

My normal Mint setup for my Falcon is on a HDD as IDE1 and is C: = TOS, D: = ext2fs and E: = Fat32.
2nd IDE device is the CF with FAT32.
I also use a CF-mSD converter so that I can transfer stuff via SD/mSD (notebooks, camera and even my phone).

Some information on networking on Mint can be found on my website.
I see you have a graphic card on your TT, so after you have network running, you can try out weather app & Google maps, also from my website.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:46 am

There is no sense to make FAT32 on 2GB card. You just use good old FAT16. Which can have long file names too. Remember: Windows long file names were introduced with Windows 95, and in that time there was no FAT32 at all !
And even if you want only 1 partition on that 2GB card, no need for FAT32, because may use 2GB FAT16 partition. But that combination requires BigDOS, or BigDOSF - question is will it work properly on Hades ?
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby joska » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:26 am

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:My question is what is the best scheme to partition this card for Mint?

Bear in mind I want to make this the master and disconnect the mechanical drive eventually. Also I would like to be able to access the CF card in Linux. Thanks.


The Hades has TOS 3, right? And you want to boot MiNT from this card? Is this CF-card connected to the IDE- or SCSI-bus? Because if it's on the IDE-bus TOS/HD-Driver can't boot from DOS-compatible media.

I'm using IDE->SD-adapters myself in all my Ataris. The TOS on my Firebee can boot directly from DOS-partitioned media, so no problem exchanging data there. The Falcon and STE use stock TOS, and to avoid using byteswapped devices (which slows things down a bit) I usually mount the cards in Hatari on my Linux-box if I need to access them there. You could try this with your Hades too.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby joska » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:36 am

AtariZoll wrote:There is no sense to make FAT32 on 2GB card. You just use good old FAT16. Which can have long file names too. Remember: Windows long file names were introduced with Windows 95, and in that time there was no FAT32 at all !


F32 partitions are faster than F16 with MiNT. Also, you'd have to use 32K clusters to get a 2Gb partition with F16, which is not very efficient. F16 is IMO only recommended if one needs to access the partitions from TOS.

AtariZoll wrote:And even if you want only 1 partition on that 2GB card, no need for FAT32, because may use 2GB FAT16 partition. But that combination requires BigDOS, or BigDOSF - question is will it work properly on Hades ?


He said that he will boot from this card, that rules out BigDOS and a single partition ;)

I would guess that BigDOS works just as "good" on the Hades as on other TOS computers.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:43 pm

joska wrote:
TheNameOfTheGame wrote:My question is what is the best scheme to partition this card for Mint?

Bear in mind I want to make this the master and disconnect the mechanical drive eventually. Also I would like to be able to access the CF card in Linux. Thanks.


The Hades has TOS 3, right? And you want to boot MiNT from this card? Is this CF-card connected to the IDE- or SCSI-bus? Because if it's on the IDE-bus TOS/HD-Driver can't boot from DOS-compatible media.

I'm using IDE->SD-adapters myself in all my Ataris. The TOS on my Firebee can boot directly from DOS-partitioned media, so no problem exchanging data there. The Falcon and STE use stock TOS, and to avoid using byteswapped devices (which slows things down a bit) I usually mount the cards in Hatari on my Linux-box if I need to access them there. You could try this with your Hades too.


Yes, it is TOS 3 and the CF card is on the IDE bus. So I need to make at least 1 straight TOS (GEM or BGM) partition to boot from? How big should that be if I just want to boot Mint from it? I would probably use fat32 or something else on the other partitions. Thanks.

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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby joska » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:50 pm

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Yes, it is TOS 3 and the CF card is on the IDE bus. So I need to make at least 1 straight TOS (GEM or BGM) partition to boot from?


If you want to boot from it you can't use DOS/TOS+DOS partitioning to make it accessible under Linux. You must choose one :)

That aside - yes, there must be atleast one TOS partition to boot from. That means TOS partitioning, and the boot partition must be less than 512Mb.

TheNameOfTheGame wrote: How big should that be if I just want to boot Mint from it? I would probably use fat32 or something else on the other partitions. Thanks.


MiNT itself is not big. If you install a plain MiNT/XaAES install (like VanillaMiNT) 10Mb would do. But I'd recommend atleast 100Mb.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:03 pm

joska wrote:
TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Yes, it is TOS 3 and the CF card is on the IDE bus. So I need to make at least 1 straight TOS (GEM or BGM) partition to boot from?


If you want to boot from it you can't use DOS/TOS+DOS partitioning to make it accessible under Linux. You must choose one :)

That aside - yes, there must be atleast one TOS partition to boot from. That means TOS partitioning, and the boot partition must be less than 512Mb.

TheNameOfTheGame wrote: How big should that be if I just want to boot Mint from it? I would probably use fat32 or something else on the other partitions. Thanks.


MiNT itself is not big. If you install a plain MiNT/XaAES install (like VanillaMiNT) 10Mb would do. But I'd recommend atleast 100Mb.


I looked at VanillaMiNT and it says it is for Falcon/TT (030 cpu). I see the executable is named mint030.prg. My Hades has an 060. Do I need a specifically compiled kernel for the Hades?

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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:38 pm

joska wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:There is no sense to make FAT32 on 2GB card. You just use good old FAT16. Which can have long file names too. Remember: Windows long file names were introduced with Windows 95, and in that time there was no FAT32 at all !


F32 partitions are faster than F16 with MiNT. Also, you'd have to use 32K clusters to get a 2Gb partition with F16, which is not very efficient. F16 is IMO only recommended if one needs to access the partitions from TOS.

AtariZoll wrote:And even if you want only 1 partition on that 2GB card, no need for FAT32, because may use 2GB FAT16 partition. But that combination requires BigDOS, or BigDOSF - question is will it work properly on Hades ?


He said that he will boot from this card, that rules out BigDOS and a single partition ;)

I would guess that BigDOS works just as "good" on the Hades as on other TOS computers.


I still say that FAT32 on 2GB media is not good idea.
It is possible to boot from IDE hard disk with DOS partitions on Ataris. I solved it. But it is truth that Hddriver can not boot that combination.
In any case, this is not simple situation, because Linux access requires DOS partitioning, while Hddriver requires TOS partitioning :x
The whole trick is in special bootsector, what is DOS compatible + Atari code is byte swapped, so it will autoboot. I guess that Firebee does something like that too in his TOS - concrete it byte swaps IDE bootsector for case that it is DOS type - and then if checksum is $1234 executes it.
Truth is that byte-swap slowdowns transfer, but on Falcon it is much less than on 68000 (barell shifter) . With byte-swap IDE is still aprox same speed as SCSI on Falcon - about 1.6 MB/sec . On Hades certainly much more. And you self use DOS type on Firebee :D

In this case, it seems that useful combination is one TOS partititon and one FAT32. Only problem is that Linux will not see anything of them, as it handles not TOS partitioning - except if it is compiled in Kernel. Blame Atari, because did not HW byte-swap right at moment when they started to use IDE.
Other idea would be TOS/DOS partitioning, but it will not autoboot with IDE and Hddriver, even not with latest versions which support more partitions, if I know it correct.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:57 am

AtariZoll wrote:I still say that FAT32 on 2GB media is not good idea.


Guys, which ever format works for you, just use it and it is best for you.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby joska » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:44 am

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:I looked at VanillaMiNT and it says it is for Falcon/TT (030 cpu). I see the executable is named mint030.prg. My Hades has an 060. Do I need a specifically compiled kernel for the Hades?


Yes, sorry, for a moment I thought that you had a TT. Correct, VanillaMiNT is for Falcon and TT specifically. You could run it on the Hades by replacing the kernel with the 040-kernel from http://freemint.org, but IIRC there are other considerations to take as well. I have never installed MiNT on a Hades so I can't be of any assistance.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby joska » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:09 am

AtariZoll wrote:It is possible to boot from IDE hard disk with DOS partitions on Ataris. I solved it. But it is truth that Hddriver can not boot that combination.


I'm aware of your driver. I *believe* the Hades has a Falcon-compatible IDE-port so I guess your driver works. But IIRC your driver does not support XHDI which makes it less than ideal for MiNT users.

However, it might be possible to boot a DOS-partitioned drive with your driver and then run HD-Driver from the autofolder. I did not think of that.

AtariZoll wrote:And you self use DOS type on Firebee :D


Yes, but that's not a Hades. Both FireTOS and EmuTOS supports DOS-partitioned media directly, so no need for any special drivers or tricks. On my other Ataris (STE, Falcon and Milan) I prefer TOS-partitioned drives.

AtariZoll wrote:In this case, it seems that useful combination is one TOS partititon and one FAT32. Only problem is that Linux will not see anything of them, as it handles not TOS partitioning - except if it is compiled in Kernel.


Personally I always use Hatari when accessing Atari drives (well, SD-cards as I'm using IDE->SD adapters in all my Ataris now) on my Linux computer. But my needs may be different from the original poster's - when the disk/card is set up first time I rarely need to access it from other computers again. On both my Milan and Falcon I store all documents, data, sources etc on the second SD-card which is DOS-partitioned. I can then easily move this card between my Ataris and also back it up easily on my Linux machine.

And btw - I almost always use the setup you suggested: One TOS-partition to boot from and one big FAT32 partitions for applications. The second card is always one big FAT32. On the Firebee I also have an ext2-partition.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:29 am

joska wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:It is possible to boot from IDE hard disk with DOS partitions on Ataris. I solved it. But it is truth that Hddriver can not boot that combination.


I'm aware of your driver. I *believe* the Hades has a Falcon-compatible IDE-port so I guess your driver works. But IIRC your driver does not support XHDI which makes it less than ideal for MiNT users.
....

Not true. I did XHDI support years ago, and it worked well with Mint too. In current commercial driver XHDI is removed, but I can include it on request, without extra charge. But things are, that so far nobody asked for it :D
And as I tested, Mint needs XHDI only in case of DOS type partitioning. If it is TOS type, then XHDI is not necessary.
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Re: Mint and CF card with Hades060

Postby wongck » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:24 pm

i think needed for fat32 & ext2 fs.
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