KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Post all your Kryoflux related topics in here. From questions about the hardware through to disks you've managed to image up and, probably most importantly, write back without any problems :)

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby ijor » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:07 pm

Tronic wrote:Below you can download the image that doesn't work when I write back the image to disk using Kryoflux:-
http://www.johncove.co.uk/clients/KickO ... D-DEAD.zip


Thanks. As I suspected, the Kryoflux software can't write back this protection directly from a raw dump. Your reimaged dump from the non working copy shows that it doesn't have the data properly under the index, neither the NFA is reproduced accurately.

In this particular case, you might have better luck with the SCP. The philosophy of the SCP software is a bit different, more designed for working directly with raw dumps than with high level processed images. Not judging if one approach is better than the other, just pointing that for this particular purpose, it might work better.

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby ijor » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:19 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
And btw, this is not your "usual" copylock protection. I know you call it Copylock, but I don't think it is copylock at all.


You're perfectly wrong here. The anco titles use a custom copylock, different from the one used on the other publishers titles.
It is in fact a variant of the copylock short version spanned on 6 tracks.


Well, you think I am wrong, that is your opinion. And you think it is Copylock, that doesn't mean it really is.

As I said, I am aware that you (SPS) call this protection as a Copylock variant. But I never seen or heard any evidence that the NFA (strongbits) protection is related to Rob Northern in anyway. If you want to keep arguing I am wrong, please provide some actual evidence.

Yes the disk loads, but there are no confirmation that the game doesn't load anything from track 44 to 79 side 1.


There are no such confirmation indeed. But you seems to forget what you wrote just a couple of posts above.

If you have said that the dumps shows noise in a few tracks, that might indicate a possible problem with the disk or the dump, then I would have agreed with you 100%. But you said that something went wrong ... your disk is damaged ... and that that's the reason the write back fails. Which doesn't make any sense at all.

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:29 pm

Thanks for looking into this.

How do I write back SCP images though?
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Brume » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:05 pm

SCP disks can be written with the Super Card Pro. I can do that for you and send you the disk.

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:10 pm

Well, you think I am wrong, that is your opinion. And you think it is Copylock, that doesn't mean it really is.


IFW has reversed and implemented this copy protection inside the CTA analyser, so yes it's a copylock. Anco mostly used this protection on all of its games. On the Atari ST, and the Amiga.

The CTA analyser engine detects exactly when a protection is known. The result here is crystal clear : it's the copylock "Anco", 12 sectors per track, spanned from track 2 to 6. (by the way, the Amiga version of this protection is also called "Copylock Anco". It works the same way).

Pick any games : kick off 2 and all its releases, Tip Off, and most other Anco titles, they use the same scheme.

As I said, I am aware that you (SPS) call this protection as a Copylock variant. But I never seen or heard any evidence that the NFA (strongbits) protection is related to Rob Northern in anyway. If you want to keep arguing I am wrong, please provide some actual evidence.


Well, If IFW has found that it was a copylock variant, then he is right. (it has indeed the NFA, i saw the same thing as you did, but i don't see where it could not be possible coupled with a Copylock).

I wonder why you react like this, do you have any problem with him ?

There are no such confirmation indeed. But you seems to forget what you wrote just a couple of posts above.


I did not forget anything, you can have a disk dump where 3/4 of the disk is good, and the remaining bad. It's not the first time i see that.

But here i have nothing yet to confirm what i see either with aufit and the CTA.

If you have said that the dumps shows noise in a few tracks, that might indicate a possible problem with the disk or the dump, then I would have agreed with you 100%. But you said that something went wrong ... your disk is damaged ... and that that's the reason the write back fails. Which doesn't make any sense at all.


I have already seen a game with this kind of geometry. It was Primal rage on Amiga 1200. The Disk 4 in revision v1.2 has a mastering error, with half the tracks not mastered on side 1. So yes it could be a problem. Since i can't determine yet if the dump is OK or not, i wait for a 3rd dump.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:15 pm

ANOTHER piece of hardware to find room for - lol :)

If you can, please, that would be greatly appreciated, Bruno :)
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby kodak80 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:46 pm

Sorry, the copy I was working with was tronic's dump. I do not have this one myself. Hopefully Brume could dump some of his other copies?
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:56 pm

no problem, i have sent finally the temp IPF to Tronic, so he can now writes it back on disk.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Brume » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:29 pm

kodak80 wrote:Sorry, the copy I was working with was tronic's dump. I do not have this one myself. Hopefully Brume could dump some of his other copies?

Sorry, I don't have the same copy as Tronic's one.
I have another disk spread by Titus here in France, but it's the same version as the one I uploaded sooner (same files, single disk).

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:30 pm

Brume wrote:
kodak80 wrote:Sorry, the copy I was working with was tronic's dump. I do not have this one myself. Hopefully Brume could dump some of his other copies?

Sorry, I don't have the same copy as Tronic's one.
I have another disk spread by Titus here in France, but it's the same version as the one I uploaded sooner (same files, single disk).


I sent you too the private IPF corresponding to your dump.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby ijor » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:06 am

dlfrsilver wrote:IFW has reversed and implemented this copy protection inside the CTA analyser, so yes it's a copylock.
...
The CTA analyser engine detects exactly when a protection is known. The result here is crystal clear : it's the copylock "Anco"


What kind of argument is that?? In which way this provides any evidence that I am wrong?

So yes, the analyzer developed by SPS identifies the protection as "Copylock". Whatever protection names appear in that software were put the by the developer. This means what I have already said. That SPS calls this protection Copylock, or that SPS thinks that this protection was called Copylock, or that SPS claims so. It doesn't provide any evidence whatsoever that this was indeed related to Rob Northern or to the Copylock branding.

For me, Copylock is the protection where one sector on the track (usually sector 6 on track 0) has a different bit rate than the others. We have hard strong factual evidence that this protection was developed by Rob Northern. For starters, his copyright message is embedded in the actual copy protected sector. That's evidence!

So far, I never seen any similar evidence that relates the NFA protection to Rob Northern. So I ask again. Can you provide any evidence?

Well, If IFW has found that it was a copylock variant, then he is right.
...
I wonder why you react like this, do you have any problem with him ?


Ehm ??? Problem with whom??? Just because I disagree with him ???

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby ijor » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:09 am

Tronic wrote:How do I write back SCP images though?
ANOTHER piece of hardware to find room for - lol :)


Isn't that ironic? You need additional hardware, but it is just a software issue, not really a hardware limitation. There is no reason why the SCP software couldn't be ported to the Kryoflux hardware, and vice versa. But I guess they will never do that. Or if they would open source the software, somebody else might do the port.

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby JimDrew » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:46 am

First of all, I don't give a crap what anyone says, the Anco titles were NEVER protected by ANYTHING that Rob (Nothern) created... period. Rob never did ANY variations of CopyLock that used strong bits (NFA), per Rob himself.

The information for controlling the SuperCard Pro hardware is readily available, and there are many programs (besides my own) that drive the hardware directly to make images and create disks. Keep in mind that the ONLY reason that I created the SuperCard Pro hardware to begin with was to make a platform that was fully open for people to easily develop on.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:36 am

As I know there are 2 types of R.N. Copylock: earlier one is track read based, later is with 1 sector with higher density (as Ijor said) . But later using track read too, only that it does actually nothing. I need to look it again and give here some examples for both types.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:04 am

ijor wrote:
Tronic wrote:How do I write back SCP images though?
ANOTHER piece of hardware to find room for - lol :)


Isn't that ironic? You need additional hardware, but it is just a software issue, not really a hardware limitation. There is no reason why the SCP software couldn't be ported to the Kryoflux hardware, and vice versa. But I guess they will never do that. Or if they would open source the software, somebody else might do the port.


OK :) I won't buy the SCP just to re-image one disk though.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:05 am

I have 200 or so RAW images I've taken in the past few months - can I upload them somewhere for checking and submitting to the database?
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby kodak80 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:20 am

If you want IPFs then your best bet is to allow dlfrsilver to review them first and you will at least get some temporary IPFs back. I upload mine to Mega and give him a link to access and check them.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:10 am

OK, cheers :)

200 though - ouch! LOL
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby ijor » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:56 am

Tronic wrote:I have 200 or so RAW images I've taken in the past few months - can I upload them somewhere for checking and submitting to the database?


Didn't you offer to setup some hosting space for flux dumps? It would be great if you could do so. That would allow everybody to check and download the dumps.

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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:13 am

Yes but didn't get much interest so I closed it for now (was making my server backups LONG)...

I will open up another account now and exclude from backup and re-upload all images I have.

Cheers.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:09 pm

What kind of argument is that?? In which way this provides any evidence that I am wrong?


You really want to cut hair in half, eh ? :lol:

So yes, the analyzer developed by SPS identifies the protection as "Copylock". Whatever protection names appear in that software were put the by the developer. This means what I have already said. That SPS calls this protection Copylock, or that SPS thinks that this protection was called Copylock, or that SPS claims so. It doesn't provide any evidence whatsoever that this was indeed related to Rob Northern or to the Copylock branding.


I know that the software encryption system used by Anco is called "Cobra X-Rom". But about this protection, it's a variant of the copylock "Short" 12 sectors, but here with NFA area spanned on each 4 protection tracks.

i found back this piece of explanation dated from 2008 :

"Analyser: "Anco" Variant: When checking the images using the recently supported Copylock protection variant it was noticed that Atari ST games by Anco (we have some Kick Off 2 dumps as samples) seemed to have similar signs of protection to the recently supported Copylock format. Investigating further revealed that they indeed use a very similar protection and these games now are fully supported."

For me, Copylock is the protection where one sector on the track (usually sector 6 on track 0) has a different bit rate than the others. We have hard strong factual evidence that this protection was developed by Rob Northern. For starters, his copyright message is embedded in the actual copy protected sector. That's evidence!


So far, I never seen any similar evidence that relates the NFA protection to Rob Northern. So I ask again. Can you provide any evidence?


You're right about the evidence, there's nothing in clear text on disk showing it was made by RN. But, it looks like a variant of the classic RNC copylock short with NFA added.

Thing is that with a copier like powercopy you can copy any copylock (even those made on atari ST), so i guess the NFA has been added to be sure that no home equipment can replicate it.

Oh well, after all, the copy protection is fully understood, and the mastering works perfectly and is exactly like the original one present on the dumped disk.

So i guess it's a futile argument lol,? :wink:
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:24 pm

All very interesting stuff though, I have to say! Very clever!
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby Tronic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:24 pm

I have relaunched the FTP - I will let you have details if I get a PM but I am not making it public.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:36 pm

This title (Kick Off 2 + WC 90), Anco release is certainly not Copylock by Rob Northen protection. Not any of - not even close. In 1990 his second type protection was widely used.
Example of first type R.N. prot. is for instance Buggy Boy by Elite. You can see this in bootsector:
***************** Protection: ** ** 'CopylockST' ** 20/05/88 ** ** (c)1988 ** ROB NORTHEN ** COMPUTING ** *****************
It is based on track load (track 0 usually, I think) and seeking specific pattern in it.

Example of second type, early version, for instance in Voyager: in bootsector:
Protection (C)1989 Rob Northen Computing. All Rights Reserved. - or later year.
Sector 6 in track 0 is with lower density (slower read). There is txt: Rob Northen Comp at start of it.
Later versions are same considering protection self, but it is made harder and harder to crack by time.
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Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:48 pm

AtariZoll wrote:This title (Kick Off 2 + WC 90), Anco release is certainly not Copylock by Rob Northen protection. Not any of - not even close. In 1990 his second type protection was widely used.


Anco "copylock" tracks looks like the copylock short version from RN, but this doesn't necessary mean that he made them. Maybe we should ask him.

i know he protected Kick Off (Amiga and ST) and Kick Off 3 (Amiga only). Maybe someone at Anco reworked his protection, it "could be" possible.

Rob Northern always customized his protection for his customers, so why not ?

Example of first type R.N. prot. is for instance Buggy Boy by Elite. You can see this in bootsector:
***************** Protection: ** ** 'CopylockST' ** 20/05/88 ** ** (c)1988 ** ROB NORTHEN ** COMPUTING ** *****************
It is based on track load (track 0 usually, I think) and seeking specific pattern in it.


Oh yes, the CopylockST, the very first copylock version he did, but it was for R-type ST. Buggy Boy was done a bit later.

Example of second type, early version, for instance in Voyager: in bootsector:
Protection (C)1989 Rob Northen Computing. All Rights Reserved. - or later year.
Sector 6 in track 0 is with lower density (slower read). There is txt: Rob Northen Comp at start of it.
Later versions are same considering protection self, but it is made harder and harder to crack by time.


Yes the protections Rob worked on had his name buried in it. That's exact.
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