STE Sound Volume Adjustment

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Steven Seagal
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STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:39 am

Some of you find the DMA sound too low.
But Steem is an accurate emulator, not a STE "as it should have been". I don't want people to claim that it is better in the emulator than on the real machine.

There are also technical issues. DMA sound is 8bit, YM sound uses a 16bit table. If we boost DMA sound, there will be distortion because the YM sound is very hot. It is already softer in v3.9.2 if you compare.
So we should reduce YM volume. To do that the simplest way is to shift the samples.
Notice that using Windows sound volume like for drive isn't possible without major refactoring because the sound YM+DMA is only one flow and must be so for Microwire emulation.

In the attached file, samples are shifted (/2) once, and they are a second time in Steem since v3.9.2.
The problem is corrected but is that faithful?
You may use one or the other file according to your tastes/needs.

Option 'Sampled YM2149', of course.
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby dma » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:06 am

I don't know if STeem DMA sound volume is actually too low or too high compared to the real machine,
but if you want some opinion about what to do, please have its STe DMA sound volume faithful to the real thing (as you suggest).

Otherwise STeem will not be usable for YM+DMA composing (using maxYMiser for example).

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Marakatti » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:16 am

Maybe an optional fix?

Last night when kids were sleeping and i was testing stuff i woke them up because i forgot to put the volume down after testing some low noise STe stuff. So the glorious chipmusic filled the entire house, soon with two "extra voices", at 1.30am :lol:

I know, my error. Maybe i use headset next time :D

Steven Seagal wrote:In the attached file, samples are shifted (/2) once, and they are a second time in Steem since v3.9.2.
The problem is corrected but is that faithful?
You may use one or the other file according to your tastes/needs.

Option 'Sampled YM2149', of course.

Thanks :cheers:
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:19 am

Sorry, I was not aware about separated thread for each request.
I don't get what you mean under "very hot" YM sound. Probably that is harsh . Why reducing volume of YM if it is not too high, and causes not distortion ?
I noticed that DMA is much silenter in Steem years ago before discovered that bad mixing by real STE. That was of course not some bug, but correct emulation of existing HW. So, if you already lowered, then this another /2 will give almost correct ratio. I will test.
But really don't get that YM+DMA is one flow. It is mixed digitally somewhere.
"But Steem is an accurate emulator, not a STE "as it should have been". I don't want people to claim that it is better in the emulator than on the real machine."
Really ? So, then why fast floppy access mode, why extended video modes, etc ? Why side-B option ? Why emu detect option at all ?
Not to mention that whole original STEem is hacked to work with older TOS versions (for ST) too - that's corrected only in Steem SSE :D
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:21 am

dma wrote:I don't know if STeem DMA sound volume is actually too low or too high compared to the real machine,
but if you want some opinion about what to do, please have its STe DMA sound volume faithful to the real thing (as you suggest).

Otherwise STeem will not be usable for YM+DMA composing (using maxYMiser for example).



I did not ask to change it in default conditions, but that add option in audio settings for correct mixing ratio - and 'correct' here was in both meanings :D
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:35 am

AtariZoll wrote:Sorry, I was not aware about separated thread for each request.


No worry, it's a "new" way.

I don't get what you mean under "very hot" YM sound. Probably that is harsh . Why reducing volume of YM if it is not too high, and causes not distortion ?


It is loud if you check in some sound utility. In Steem 3.9.1, YM sound by itself could clip, which is very bad. If you add louder DMA sound...

But really don't get that YM+DMA is one flow. It is mixed digitally somewhere.


In Steem yes, but then it goes as one flow into Microwire emulation.

"But Steem is an accurate emulator, not a STE "as it should have been". I don't want people to claim that it is better in the emulator than on the real machine."

Really ? So, then why fast floppy access mode, why extended video modes, etc ? Why side-B option ? Why emu detect option at all ?


Those are conveniences, as opposed to changing the sound, though for the extended modes you're right. If it was only me, I would remove them.
B-side existed...

Not to mention that whole original STEem is hacked to work with older TOS versions (for ST) too - that's corrected only in Steem SSE :D


It wasn't hacked, the MMU emulation was less accurate than now.

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:52 am

It was hacked - for instance to work with TOS on different address than it is in STE. We are aware that SSE improved emulation of many things, but this thread is not about what was, but what may be done in future :D
"It is loud if you check in some sound utility. In Steem 3.9.1, YM sound by itself could clip, which is very bad. If you add louder DMA sound...'
Well, that's not so simple. YM generates not sinus waveform signals. Part of bigger loudness is right in that.
"In Steem yes, but then it goes as one flow into Microwire emulation."
That makes no sense. They are mixed not before, but in Microwire circuit. You can even switch off PSG audio in it.

Anyway, honestly, I'm getting tired of this arguing. So, I will look what can I do in Steem 3.2 about it. Especially that I just discovered another bug in Steem Debugger (normal Steem is OK) (3.2) - Volume control works not - it's always on max regardless from tab setting :D
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:12 am

Arguing?

AtariZoll wrote:It was hacked - for instance to work with TOS on different address than it is in STE.


But this aspect wasn't changed in SSE, TOS will start, the MMU emu was changed and the STE will stall.

That makes no sense. They are mixed not before, but in Microwire circuit. You can even switch off PSG audio in it.


In the STE, the Microwire is an analog circuit so there's no digital mixing.
In Steem, it is digitally mixed before it goes into Microwire emu so that bass and treble controls be applied on both YM and DMA sound.

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:15 am

By the way, I haven't forgotten the other aspect, do -6db on YM sound if Microwire is set to %10 ($2).
It's an existing hack on some STE, so legit, but optional.

EDIT corrected $ -> %
Last edited by Steven Seagal on Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:29 am

I was talking about that STEem is not only STE, but ST emulator too, but that it was achieved by not real emulation, but by some hacks. So, it was not "accurate" . Can we finish this accuracy thing now ?

It is not -6db, but -12db, or /6 . Look STE schematic - there are resistors to get approx. that dividing ratio, but circuit is messed up.
And fact, that someone made that mod already proves that error bothered not only me. And then it must be legit ? Really can not follow your logic.
I said that is has to be optional too. And I choose option to do something more useful than repeating myself here ...
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:42 am

Is it /6?
Volume * 2 = +6db
/2 = - 6db
/4 = -12db

AtariZoll wrote:And then it must be legit ? Really can not follow your logic.


If a hack exists on some machine, emulating it can be legit.
For example, in Steem, the memory option '12 Mb (MonSTer alt-RAM)' is legit, but the option '14 MB (hack)' isn't as long as there's no such a MMU (maybe there is after all, don't know).
But you're right, it's just a personal point of view.

And I choose option to do something more useful than repeating myself here ...


Why do you choose this antagonistic tone? A problem with your Microwire? :mrgreen:

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:12 pm

Accurate ratio is not known. And subjective loudness feeling depends a lot of kind of sound. I think that anything between 4 and 6 is OK. Best is separate adjusting of DMA and PSG level (repeating myself #1) .
Problem is that I have zillion things to do. Probably could solve this already in time spent here.
Maybe will change my signature to something forum related, instead being antagonistic toward Monsanto :mrgreen:
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:39 am

So I just added this in Steem (not available yet, source is a mess), it's easy enough the way I proposed, just shifting the YM sound 2 bit when $2 is written in the Microwire mixer.
It works with the (amateur?) game Sabotage, which maybe was developed on a modded STE?
On my STE, it blasts at full volume.
Could you point to some of your little games using the feature? :mrgreen:

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:58 am

Steven Seagal wrote:So I just added this in Steem (not available yet, source is a mess), it's easy enough the way I proposed, just shifting the YM sound 2 bit when $2 is written in the Microwire mixer.
It works with the (amateur?) game Sabotage, which maybe was developed on a modded STE?
On my STE, it blasts at full volume.
Could you point to some of your little games using the feature? :mrgreen:


Sabotage was done much before that STE mixed mod. Sorry, I don't have little games, I did not write any game yet.
But you can listen how Falcon mixing PSG and DMA .
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:05 am

I mean those games you mod of course, I guess you have some using the STE hack, or else why do we have this discussion?

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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:13 am

Steven Seagal wrote:I mean those games you mod of course, I guess you have some using the STE hack, or else why do we have this discussion?

I know what you meant, just did not find it amusing.
There is only Xenon 2 and Uridium. Cannon Fodder has silenter PSG, so no need for mixfix.
Ah, you can try Rogue (AES game) with background STE audio player. http://atari.8bitchip.info/STEbap.html
Recommended is using low level ACSI emulation, not GEMDOS drive - actually, later works only with background STE audio player.
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Re: STE Sound Volume Adjustment

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:24 am

Yes, this is serious business.


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