Processor comparisons

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Zarchos
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:07 am

wongck wrote:
Zarchos wrote:Ever heard of Starfighter 3000 ?
https://youtu.be/gKEaX4RjWkk


No... where to find for Atari falcon ?


The Falcon would do it even better and fingers in the nose, on one foot.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:16 am

simonsunnyboy wrote:Acorn Risc Machine in the beginning, someway around 92 or 93 (Zarchos, correct me), it was renamed to Advanced RISC Machine.


1990 for the spin-off.

In 1998 there's been the floatation, and I was ready to have the most serious argument ever with my father, telling him that he had to buy some shares.
I even remember inquiring at the Société Générale to know if it was possible, and yes it was ...
x50 when Sofbank bought the company.
Never had any shares :cry: , and I must admit I have been quite afraid by the Transmeta Crusoe, fortunately it was not at all as efficient as boasted by the designers.

[smilie=greencolorz4_pdt_20.gif]

Let's be honest : ARM could have been killed anytime by Intel, AMD or any other medium size company, had they wanted to.
Still a mystery, to me, they managed to thrive.
I have some 'conspiracy theory' ideas about their success, but I'll keep them for myself.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby simonsunnyboy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:06 am

As I deal daily on my job with Cortex-M core devices, it is a pleasure to get the constant positive reminder of the Archie :)

Talking about lowlevel assembler and what the IAR compiler produces, I can only tell that I would be unable to produce that tight assembly code myself.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:00 am

simonsunnyboy wrote:As I deal daily on my job with Cortex-M core devices, it is a pleasure to get the constant positive reminder of the Archie :)

Talking about lowlevel assembler and what the IAR compiler produces, I can only tell that I would be unable to produce that tight assembly code myself.


IIRC the Acorn C compiler wasn't that good, based on the Norcroft C.
Later compilers by other companies were much better, and then there's been the GNU C / C++

To tell the truth, even the killer apps at the time like Impression or Artworks are programmed in pure assembler, with maybe a little bit of BASIC to deal with files, but that is not even sure because RISC OS provides everything, and is fully documented in the 3 000 pages Programmer's Reference Manual.
Again, because learning ARM ASM is dead easy (ultimate proof : an idiot / lazy bastard like me managed to do it).
It is not a surprise if some great apps or games like StarFighter3000 appeared on the Acorn platform : yes there was the power, but there was a whole environment, well integrated, prone to developing, and the ease of programming of the ARM CPU.
Sure the machine was expensive, but see what it offered.
90% of what has been developed on the Archies simply used the ARM assembler built-in in the BBC BASIC !
Shaun Hollingworth reminds that when speaking of his developments at Krisalis.
You can listen to Chocks Away programmer and one of the 2 programmers of Star Fighter3000 when asked if he doesn't regret not to have developed on the Amiga or PC for example :
https://youtu.be/m7iM__aHnMM?t=54m00s

Today when so many instructions have been added, it is not as easy to program efficiently an ARM CPU.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby wongck » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:02 am

Zarchos wrote: fingers in the nose, on one foot.


fingers, nose, foot ???
WTH

The Archimedes is a cool machine. i would have got it if I did not dabble into Atari. I mean I had been using Acorn computers at school, so I know they made good computers. The CPU is way faster than the 68000 so it all better hardware.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:56 am

wongck wrote:
Zarchos wrote: fingers in the nose, on one foot.


fingers, nose, foot ???
WTH

The Archimedes is a cool machine. i would have got it if I did not dabble into Atari. I mean I had been using Acorn computers at school, so I know they made good computers. The CPU is way faster than the 68000 so it all better hardware.


'fingers in the nose' : without any difficulty

You get the idea for 'on one foot' or 'on one leg' ... The Falcon is amazing, to me.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby EvilFranky » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:27 am

Zarchos wrote:You get the idea for 'on one foot' or 'on one leg' ... The Falcon is amazing, to me.


It's not without its short falls, but I believe it's the best/most interesting of the old school 'all in one box' home computers.

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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:44 am

EvilFranky wrote:
Zarchos wrote:You get the idea for 'on one foot' or 'on one leg' ... The Falcon is amazing, to me.


It's not without its short falls, but I believe it's the best/most interesting of the old school 'all in one box' home computers.


I do agree... I'd love to own one, and have a teacher next door to understand how to make the most out of it.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:22 pm

I hope, I'm allowed here to disagree.
First, the bad things about Falcon: it delayed, it was more expensive than announced. That's why I did not buy it in 1992, although saved money for it.
For that price, they could make it in same fashion as Mega ST, TT - would be more professional, better expandable, etc.
SCSI port is pretty limited - in speed, in SCSI support. IDE port is little better, but attaching there some 3.5 inch drive ... that needs extra PSU for instance.
CPU data bus only 16 bits, in 1992 ? That kills speed. Actually, Falcon at 16 MHz is not much faster than Mega STE at 16. On top of it, there is significant slowdown in higher graphic modes.
It is so-so compatible with ST(E) machines. Some things are hard to understand - why no full shadow address space for PSG chip ? Why ST HW video registers are not 100% compatible - mentioned 2 things are reason why many games fail on Falcon.

The good:
DSP chip.
They fixed some design flaws of ST(E): video base address is now updated at the end of V-blank, and not at the begin, so change of it in V-blank routine will have effect immediately, and not 1 frame later.
Fixed bad mixing ratio of PSG and STE DMA audio. They got rid of Microwire chip.
Last edited by AtariZoll on Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:32 pm

The 16 bit bus and frankly low clock speed killed It for me when combined with the price which with 14MB, a hard drive and a monitor brought it the cost of a 486 system I waited another year and went pentium, especially after seeing it would have virtually no software.
Too little, too late, too expensive.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Frank B » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:49 pm

Zarchos wrote:
wongck wrote:Very technical now.
But the bottom line is that
I can play Wing Commander on an Intel 286 computer and while we are stuck on Elite.


Ever heard of Starfighter 3000 ?
https://youtu.be/gKEaX4RjWkk


Oh yeah. I know and worked with Chris Bazely for years :)

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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby calimero » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:20 pm

AtariZoll wrote:OK, I will stop here with this. Really no point for continuing this discussion, when you write some illogical things, and some claims, which contradict to known ones: Gary Kildal, DR, did not design computer. I was talking about computer architecture, design, concept. IBM refused to buy CP/M from him, so no, IBM PC was not intended to run CP/M SW. The truth is that DR lost war, and became insignificant factor in 80-es. Was that war fair ? That's another story, and I really don't want to even think about it.

Of course Gary Kildall did not design computer but rather "OS" that could run same software on different hardware (something that you claim that is an IBM idea!).

Microsoft lined up a sweet deal in 1981 to buy the rights to QDOS, an unauthorized clone of CP/M written by Seattle Software Works. Microsoft subsequently licensed the software to IBM for use on its new PC under the name PC-DOS. Microsoft retained the rights to also license the software to other hardware manufacturers under the name MS-DOS.

Microsoft’s DOS clearly lifted large portions of its functionality directly from CP/M. However, at the time there was little concept of software patents in the rapidly emerging desktop computing market, and even the idea of software copyright was loosely defined.

As its fortunes began to take off with IBM’s PC, Microsoft also worked diligently to shut Digital Research out of the very market it had created with CP/M. While Digital Research tried to sell its original version for IBM’s PC as a product called CP/M-86, Microsoft was able to deeply discount its DOS and compete on price because it had spent very little to acquire its copy ($50.000 for QDOS).

Decade later, Novell acquired right on Digital Research patent including CP/M and later Caldera acquire Novell and ongoing lawsuit against Microsoft. Over the next half decade, Caldera continued to argue its case against Microsoft, which ended in 2000 with a $275 million settlement for Caldera in exchange for Microsoft’s demand that all the evidence in the case be destroyed. That was intended to help prevent other companies from developing similar claims against Microsoft’s predatory practices throughout the 90.

I would go even further and believe that Bill Gates KILL (made him killed) Gary Kildall! (we can not know this but that is my opinion after reading bunch of data and believing that Bill Gates is psychopath; entire Microsoft empire was builded on copying CP/M and this lawsuit could bring entire Microsoft down. Victors do write history.). And we do not know what happened between Digital Research and IBM since Gary Kildall is dead and IBMs Jack Sams change his story so many times that it is already absurd!
Last edited by calimero on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:24 pm

OMG. And you where there and seen all it with your own eyes.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 am

@Calimero : remove ASAP your comments, I advise you. You have too much to lose with your assertions. Law works on the Net, as you should know.
You can discuss only what has been proven or cite others's sayings, and only to a certain extent ...

That is not me saying this, it is the Law, and if you don't play with their laws, you have too much to lose, believe me.
Listen to my friendly advice.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby wongck » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:03 pm

It's a known fact that G bought DOS cheaply from a lowly developer, it is the way it handled the deals with big-I that made the fortune.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby calimero » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:19 pm

@Zarchos
I change "claim" to "believe" - I think it is more accurate (since english is not my main language, I choose wrong word).
So I can not write what I believe that happen? What law prohibit this?
(Beside, what I wrote is already processed and stored somewhere (probably illegally :D))
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Zarchos » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:46 pm

calimero wrote:@Zarchos
I change "claim" to "believe" - I think it is more accurate (since english is not my main language, I choose wrong word).
So I can not write what I believe that happen? What law prohibit this?
(Beside, what I wrote is already processed and stored somewhere (probably illegally :D))


No you just cannot write what you thought happened, you can be trialed for this.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby wongck » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:46 pm

slander or libel
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Miguel » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:34 pm

According to the Cubase Score 3.0 for Windows manual I have in front of me the minimum requirement was a 386DX-33MHz however for recording audio the computer must be a 486DX-50MHz or better. I ran this version of Cubase on a Pentium machine back in the day and I could run about 16 channels no problem, but what is important to bear in mind is that we are talking about native processing here whereas the Falcon used DSP hardware to do all the heavy lifting, it's a somewhat important point which is quite easily overlooked, case in point a lot of people have been buying under powered Macs to do native processing for years because big studios have been using them hitched up to third party DSP hardware (Pro Tools rigs) for years and of course Apple's switch to Intel was somewhat of an admission that they were way behind in regard to processing power.

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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby calimero » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:27 pm

Zarchos wrote:
calimero wrote:@Zarchos
I change "claim" to "believe" - I think it is more accurate (since english is not my main language, I choose wrong word).
So I can not write what I believe that happen? What law prohibit this?
(Beside, what I wrote is already processed and stored somewhere (probably illegally :D))


No you just cannot write what you thought happened, you can be trialed for this.

OFFTOPIC ------
Interesting.
I could argue how this is plain stupid since it is my own believe. Some people think that earth is flat so I believe that Bill Gates is an asshole that PAY so all evidence of his wrongdoings to be DESTROYED. So after this _fact_, what should I think about him??
You can pay for many things, but you can not pay for your ... "honesty" (I just realize that there is no english word, or I can not find it, that would describe "integrity, nobility"...)

It is "nice" thing that in society you come up with words like "slander or libel" (I had to consult dictionary) and I do believe that psychopaths that create our laws made one just for be able to call them by right names. What just Trumps did in past few months is incredible: before election and after election he speak totally different stories and there is no law that forbidden and punish this?!?!
Who will defend Gary Kildall rights? If you try to find out how he died, you will be ASTONISHED how stories are different and some totally absurd! It is like in crime novell ;)

btw
I am interested in one more thing, when you, my friends, point me that this (slander or libel) is illegal. I wonder who can challenge me for this (bring to trial): anyone, state or just person that I offend? I do not know your laws, but watching you society and especial your rulers, this seems normal that you can say anything you think: E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

btw2
we are talking here about trivial things (what one person say about other person, wtf!). - My country sign agreement that your bank are allowed to see account of our 7.000.000 citizens! What about this? Is this normal, or we accept is as normal inch by inch?
HyperNormalisation by Adam Curtis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amM

rant stop.
but this seriousness about my personal opinion is really silly.
and what tha cluck is most that "I have too much to lose with your assertions"? What is punishment for slander or libel??? Whipping or taking all "my possessions"? My home and land (and my bitcoins)? My job? :D no really, how you punish for slander or libel? By setting fine to pay and if you do not have enough money then you go to private jails?
Last edited by calimero on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby calimero » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:27 pm

All IBM done is taking CP/M and continue that path: IBM had idea that he will be only producer of these computers but CP/M philosophy of running on many different machines surfaced again and IBM lose to Compaq and all other far-east computer manufactures.

from Lew Eggebrecht interview (http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/leweggebrecht.html):

"I've always wondered why IBM went for the Intel 8088 processor rather than the 68000 of the Amiga. Can you enlighten us?

"At that time there was the choice and one of the things that attracted us to the chip was the pricing we were able to get. Also we felt it was much easier to get software runnning on the Intel architecture rather than on the Motorola - at that time there were no native compilers so everything had to be done on an IBM mainframe and there was no development environment for the 68000. Also Intel offered a package that would translate 8080 or Z80 code so that gave us the opportunity to move some applications over quickly. This meant that there was a body of software that worked at announcement and we couldn't do that with a 68000. It really had nothing to do with the technical attributes of the chips it was more a business decision."

exactly what I am explained few post earlier from mouth of IBM PC core designer.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:26 pm

That sounds realistic.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby wongck » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:38 pm

It is just a possibility and hugely depends on how strongly the other party can prove it.
As to anyone can say anything they want, no need to waste time reviewing some old videos, because there is one great example right now.
Just take a look, take a look at where that person got to, got to one of the top positions of a great great country.
I am still waiting for someone to go to jail. That's be fun.
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Miguel » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:11 pm

Just to elaborate, the PC I was using had a 100MHz Pentium processor, BIOSTAR MB-8500TAC-A Ver 5 motherboard running Windows 95 off a 1GB hard drive, Cubase Score 3.0 for PC which was on floppy disk at the time and a big old Roland RAP-10 ISA soundcard which basically had an on-board sound canvas which was handy considering that VST didn't exist back then, a separate audio hard drive and I can't remember how much RAM I started out with but I know I swapped it out and into an Akai S2000 at one point, oh yeah I also wacked a SCSI card in there, can't remember what the original video card was because it died....I guess Abe's Odyssey was too much for it.

The system was from about 95 and the PC version of Cubase was not that dissimilar from the Atari versions, in fact a lot of the developmental stuff was still being done on the Atari and shifted over to the PC, for example there was no PC version of DMaker back then so if you wanted to build editors for the studio module you had to do it on an Atari, the PC version had MROS and stuff like the IPS but I don't think it had the sampler functionality like on the Falcon but like I said you could quite easily run 16 audio tracks on a PC in the mid 90's using native processing...now as for DSP processing you could run a Yamaha CBX-D5 on a PC just like you could on an Atari and then there was TDM which also did all the heavy lifting for the computer...and stuff like soundscape or whatever which was a PITA to synchronise...a lot of cats were still just rocking an Atari ADAT combo though on account of the tapes being a lot more economical than hard disk recording back then.

Atarieterno
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Re: Processor comparisons

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:38 pm

Dear mate; I still disbelieve as Thomas the apostle, that PC I do not think that was able to record 16 audio tracks, I have seen more powerful configurations and failed for those years.
Are you sure of its effectiveness?
ST/fm/e, STacy, Mega ST/e, TT, Falcon, C-Lab MKX... and more music tools.


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