Which ports should be cared of first?

All things related to the Atari Coldfire Project

Moderators: Mathias, Mug UK, moondog/.tSCc., [ProToS], Galvez, Moderator Team

Which ports should be cared of first?

• Floppy
15
14%
• SCSI
11
10%
• MIDI
25
23%
• PS/2
13
12%
• ACSI
8
7%
• ROM-port
8
7%
• MFP serial port (legacy Atari serial)
3
3%
• Printer port
8
7%
• Game port
18
17%
 
Total votes: 109

User avatar
Knezzen
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:58 pm
Location: Sweden, Next to my Falcon 060
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Knezzen » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:37 am

joska wrote:
Knezzen wrote:
joska wrote:Instead of adding a physical ROM-port I suggest to reverse-engineer the dongles and implement them in the FPGA. I think that would be more flexible and also a more robust solution.


It's not just the dongle's. I personally use a Emagic Unitor II, Emagic LOG-3 to their full extent. This gives me 6 more MIDI outputs.
Both connects to the ROM-port and they are both needed for me to work.


Yes, very good point. I had forgotten about these devices. Just curious - does these work with accelerated machines?


They work great with my Falcon CT63@90mhz, so yes :)

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Mathias » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:39 am

Jo Even, I think we got some communication problems. Thus I am writing again a long posting, and hope it helps to clear things. But it may look like it takes total huge space and is a real problem, what it is not in my opinion.

joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:You are in no posititon, to decide what other developers have to do or not (as I am not).


I am of course in no positition to dictate anyone. I'm just expressing an opinion on what I think is sensible and not regarding what - and when! - to implement.
I am happy that you are expressing your opinion. As well I like to support your ideas about reasonable development work. I was just against your unlogical arguments of efficiency, that are not valid in my opinion (which still may be wrong), as the entire project is about some hobby and "un-efficiency" hardware.
With the sentence above I wanted to express that you exactly know from internal discussions, that no developer ever did anything what he doesnt´t like to do. So it is up to the developer who is developing what is happening.
Additionally you should know that I always like to gain synergy effects and always tried to ask people for collaboration and wise development plans, even milestones and such stuff.

joska wrote:But you are in this position.
I really have to wonder about this. You know exatly that I have no power inside the team, that I simply try to make suggestions, and that I never brought anybody to develop anything that he doesn´t count as meaningfull. All my tries to structure the project, or to ask for developing/debugging stuff that is not interresting for developers leaded to nothing at all! So what are you talking about here? I have no chance to force anybody to do anything, I just try to keep things in mind, and ask for stuff that has to be done one day. And you know that!
As well you never critizised me in such a way inside the team, but tried to always support me about things that need to be done. Additionally you are the most active guy in the team. So I really belive we have a communication problem here in this thread.

joska wrote:If not, why did you even start this poll? What do you need this for if not to prioritize future development?
It should have been a support for decisions that will be done by some developers. Of course the needs of the users are just one part. Other parts are interrest of the developer, amount of needed work, availaible time, ... it was not thought as a democratical vote for things that have to happen, but as assistance to developers upcoming decisions.

joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:To ask the users what they like is a first step here now, as we have now 2 people willing to work on the FPGA.


The poll as it is is pretty worthless, as already pointed out by mfro. One example: Five people has voted for ACSI. Does these people know that TOS 4/FireTOS doesn't support ACSI at all? These five votes are of no value whatsoever because you haven't asked the users *what* they want to use ACSI for. When you know that, you can decide if ACSI is worth working on or if the users are better off with other solutions.

Most ACSI devices are either dead or dying, and also very, very slow. At best, some people will use the ACSI-port to transfer some old data to their Firebee and then never use ACSI again. A total waste of development time, this can be much better spent on the floppy controller so everybody can transfer their old data via floppy instead. Floppy is the only universal language in the 16/32-bit Atari world.
Not the poll is not worthless! Nobody is stopping you from taking the resoults, and open another thread and discuss ACSI for example! I do not understand why that should make the general poll useless? And I am not responsible to aks what they like to use ACSI for! Why do you think I have to do this? You can do it by your own if you like, and there may evolve good discussions about your questioning.
I was just against the behavior of "how" you argued agains the needs of people. Just make an ACSI thread and make suggestions, no problem!



joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:But it is not getting easier when you argue against the needs of the users. With this arguments you can - as I said already - argue against the entire project as well if you like.


I don't argue against the needs of the users, because I know very little about them. I argue against the strange logic of spending time on stuff (yes, SCSI) when the result won't be of any use because of other issues with the Firebee that no-one are working on...
Again, where does this idea come from, that working on SCSI stops people doing other usefull stuff?


joska wrote:I also don't buy the "people will use their old equipment"-argument. Yes, some might do that, maybe the have something unique that there is no obvious replacement for. But I'm pretty sure that when someone buys a Firebee to replace their ST, they don't want to use their Megafile for long when cheap, reliable and much, much faster solid state media is the alternative. They might want to click that "printer port"-button in this poll, but when they receive the Firebee and realise how easy it is to connect it to the network and print to their modern printer that's connected to their PC they might not use that inkjet from 1997 much longer.
Perhaps, perhaps not, I do not know. I for myselve like to use my "old stuff" as long as possible. For me there is no need to get a new printer, especially not just because of the interface. And I love my Megafile, and have it connected to my MegaST even if I have a Link and SCSI chain as well (with bigger disks). But I do not know what other people like. But if there are 10 to 20% of users who like to hook up ACSI stuff to their FireBees - and be it just because they like the box - I will not thell them that they are crazy! Especially I will not tell them that they have to get new stuff.


joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:Your idea to create new USB scanner drivers would mean, to change the USB system (kick theuBoot stuff),


No it doesn't.
uBoot is capabel of driving Scanners, Printers and other stuff? If yes, thats very good, I didn´t know this.


joska wrote:
Mathias wrote: create new classes, create a scanner driver from scratch, and somehow implement it to graphic applications, create a GEM GUI for it, ... it will end up in trys to port SANE just to see that it is not working at the Bee without huge porting work, just like it was with CUPS!


Without writing new drivers you are restricted to one series of *old* scanners. You don't need to support all USB-scanners out there to have a useful replacement.
Jo even, are you kidding me? I never asked to restrict anybody to old scanners. Of course I would love to be able to use any scanner with the Bee, but it will not happen quickly. And all our serious Atari-scanner-drivers we got right now, are for SCSI. So I belive - recently - that the fastest way to be able to use scanners with the Bee at all, would be to implement SCSI. I may be wrong.
The other point is that I own 3 SCSI scanners, that they work perfectly, and that I would like to use them with the Bee as well. I am not willing to throw away working scanners just because the FireBee does not support SCSI.


joska wrote:I wouldn't mind if SCSI was added to a working Firebee.
Good. So whats all your arguing about?


joska wrote:But I would be slightly disappointed (or maybe a bit pissed off) if SCSI was added to a Firebee with a graphic solution that is no more Videl/shifter-compatible than the ATI graphics card in my Milan. Or even worse, we got a half-assed SCSI-solution where the controller is implemented but needs a dirty software-trick to work because no-one has addressed the "FPGA can't access ST-RAM" issue.
Again I am wondering about your judging of other developers. If users judge your work, for example the not sorted list of your great resolution switcher, you are pissed off. But now you are judging the work that Wolfgang and Roger are planning to do? Really? If so, stop arguing here, go to the development forum or write them a mail that you will be pissed off when they implement SCSI.
Do you have in mind why SCSI was planned first? Because several users wrote us mails, that they need it, and because it is already done inside the Suska, and much more easy to implement thant any other stuff from the list above.


joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:1) USB is in general crap. It is using the CPU and is in general totally silly at a low end CPU. SCSI or FireWire with DMA are much better solutions for our "small" computers!


USB is not crap. SCSI and FireWire is not crap either, but annoyingly weird, expensive and hard-to-get in ordinary shops.
I was talking about the bus, not about devices in shops.

joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:2) You are very often arguing for new technology or stuff, against old one. But many Atari users who use Scanners may have old ones, and like to keep them.


Yes, that is a very good point - if we knew anything about the Firebee users' needs. We don't.
Exactly, and that is why I started this poll.

joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:
joska wrote: I see the point about the tape streamer (although both my DAT streamers broke and I lost all my backups). But is this enough to make it worthwhile? You need to perform a proper survey first to determine this!
Ähm, first you asked about personal needs for SCSI, and now as I told it to you, you talk about a proper survay - about my needs? Not really? ;)


I'm not sure if I understand you. Yes, the users' personal needs are vital information when it's time to decide how to spend development resources. But a single users' personal needs are worth nothing. You are expecting to sell more than a single Firebee, right?
I am not expecting to sell anything. I am doing a project to keep the plattform alive, and perhaps make it a prospering niche-platform apart "Retro". YOU asked for exact informations form single users. So I started to talk about me personally. Of course that is not representative. But YOU asked for it! Perhaps others will follow, or - as said, we can go on at another place/thread with talking about SCSI.

joska wrote: Forget about the illegal instruction handler. The CPU is the smallest (and easiest to solve) issue when it comes to compatibility with legacy hardware. The real problem is the very incomplete implementation of key hardware like the Videl, RAM-access, DMA sound, DMA disk (floppy)... Without these the Firebee is just another clone, like the Milan or Hades.
I totally agree to this statement. But it is not connected to the questions of the ports. So let´s try to get all that points fixed too!

joska wrote: Yes, fix midi-port. Pointless and complete waste of time, because the Firebee is not capable of running the software musicians wants to run on an Atari.
Well, but you will agree that a working MIDI port is necessary to have Music applications running. BTW the Electronic Cow stuff is already working, and if we would have the MIDI port fixed we could realy use it immediatly.
On the other hand a working MIDI port is for sure needed to debug one of the Sequencers. Or shall we first "port" Cubase and Notator and than care about MIDI ports? The only thing to avoid - and if this is your concern I have to again agree - is that users think, a working MIDI port means several working Sequencers.

joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:
joska wrote:Exactly. This is the way forward. What do you think the answer would be if you asked 100 Firebee users if they would like to use an old or a new printer?
Perhaps they would answer "the one they already have" ;)


The thing is that printers and harddrives from the golden era of Atari computing are - with a few exceptions - dead or atleast well past being reliable. Mechanical devices like these does not last forever. Time spent on improving network printing (or even a USB driver) gains a lot more users than time spent on the parallell port.
Jo Even, again I do not understand you. You know that developers tried to implement network printers (and did not succeed). You know as well that no developer who cares about ports in FPGA can work on MiNT network stuff, and the other direction, that no MiNT developer is doing VHDL port descriptions, so why are you connecting that points? Of course I would love a network PostScript printer for the FireBee! But again, NVDI is here and few Paralell-port debugging might bring us some printer drivers and general printing possibilities soon. Working on the one should of course not exclude working at the other, but that was at no time the case!

joska wrote:
Mathias wrote:And after 3 people tried for a long time to implement network printing, it might be quicker to debug the parallel port and have a well known solution with NVDI for some common printers, than to create printing from scratch new.


You don't have to create anything from scratch. Network printing is already working.
Yes, but there is no real solution for users, and you know that I am behind network printing for 4 years (the MiNT98 solution).
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:28 pm

ACSI: TOS4 not supporting ACSI isn't a problem as EmuTOS has ACSI support. All such devices being at the end of their life, if working at all, is problem though (e.g. when I few years ago rescued my last files, my Megafile booted up every tenth time and gave read errors).

PS2: I don't understand why this has so few votes. There are still a lot of PS2 keyboards available, Atari keyboards & mice are much rarer. PS2 seems to be much better bet for getting input device support for EmuTOS, than waiting for USB profiles support in underlying HW.

MIDI: There's a huge amount of Atari programs supporting MIDI, from games & apps using it for networking, to MIDI utilities, trackers supporting MIDI input and proprietary/professional sequencers. Some of them are bound to work on Firebee with 68k emulation, and some even have still developers supporting them [1], whom might port them to Firebee.

[1] For example maxYMiser.

User avatar
MacFalcon
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:00 pm
Location: Muenchberg, Germany
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby MacFalcon » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:09 pm

I voted for "game port" as I dream to play falcon games on the firebee one day... and without that it wouldn´t be possible... of course ps2 would be great, too and all the others... but I am one of the few Falcon gamers and I want gaming on the firebee :D

Best regards,

Chris
Falcon060, 100/25 MHz, 256 MB SD-RAM, PhantomPBS, CTPCI with Radeon, USB and Network Card. atari rulez!

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 3692
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby joska » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:28 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:ACSI: TOS4 not supporting ACSI isn't a problem as EmuTOS has ACSI support. All such devices being at the end of their life, if working at all, is problem though (e.g. when I few years ago rescued my last files, my Megafile booted up every tenth time and gave read errors).

PS2: I don't understand why this has so few votes. There are still a lot of PS2 keyboards available, Atari keyboards & mice are much rarer. PS2 seems to be much better bet for getting input device support for EmuTOS, than waiting for USB profiles support in underlying HW.


EmuTOS is a great achievement, but does not have any 68k support. So for the majority of users it's still not very usable.

Eero Tamminen wrote:MIDI: There's a huge amount of Atari programs supporting MIDI, from games & apps using it for networking, to MIDI utilities, trackers supporting MIDI input and proprietary/professional sequencers. Some of them are bound to work on Firebee with 68k emulation, and some even have still developers supporting them [1], whom might port them to Firebee.

[1] For example maxYMiser.


maxYMiser is a good example of a non-working program. It starts, displays a GEM menu briefly and then the screen turns black indefinitely. I haven't attempted to debug it.
Jo Even

Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

Hippy Dave
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:40 am

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Hippy Dave » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:21 pm

joska wrote:
EmuTOS is a great achievement, but does not have any 68k support. So for the majority of users it's still not very usable.

maxYMiser is a good example of a non-working program. It starts, displays a GEM menu briefly and then the screen turns black indefinitely. I haven't attempted to debug it.

CORRECTION:
EmuTOS is a great achievement, and has 68k support. So for the majority of users it's very usable.

maxYMiser is a good example of a working program. It starts, displays a GEM menu, and works excellently. I haven't attempted to debug it because there is no need to.

Tested on Hatari with EmuTOS and MaxYmizer (has worked for years).

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 3692
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby joska » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:23 pm

We're talking about the Firebee here. EmuTOS has no 68k emulation, and maxYMiser doesn't work, even under software 68k emulation.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk
Jo Even

Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:20 pm

joska wrote:EmuTOS is a great achievement, but does not have any 68k support. So for the majority of users it's still not very usable.


It's usable in finding whether/what things are fully ColdFire compatible. :-)

Eero Tamminen wrote:maxYMiser is a good example of a non-working program.


The point was that it seems still actively developed, so there's some hope of it being made to support ColdFire natively, not through emulation.

Eero Tamminen wrote:It starts, displays a GEM menu briefly and then the screen turns black indefinitely. I haven't attempted to debug it.


Did you run it under single tasking TOS/AES (say, EmuTOS), or multitasking TOS/AES (e.g. MiNT/XaAES)?

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 3692
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby joska » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:45 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:It's usable in finding whether/what things are fully ColdFire compatible. :-)


That's true, but I hope people are using their Firebees for more than that :)

Eero Tamminen wrote:The point was that it seems still actively developed, so there's some hope of it being made to support ColdFire natively, not through emulation.


I'm quite sure that the ColdFire isn't the problem here. It's usually not. It's more likely a problem with the implementation of the legacy chipset.

Anyway, only a very small fraction of software is supported or even have sources available today. We can't rely on that but have to adapt the Firebee to the software, not the other way round.

Eero Tamminen wrote:Did you run it under single tasking TOS/AES (say, EmuTOS), or multitasking TOS/AES (e.g. MiNT/XaAES)?


Plain FireTOS, with and without software 68k emulation.
Jo Even

Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12005
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby wongck » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:39 am

So it was the printer that was cared first.
So what's the next one?
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Mathias » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:26 pm

wongck wrote:So it was the printer that was cared first.
So what's the next one?

This afternoon (GMT -1) I will meet for the first time witht the PIC developer here in Vienna, who has a dev. machine for ages now. I will tie him up, and if needed torture him, until the Game Port and the PS/2 will work perfectly. ;)
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 12005
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby wongck » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:16 pm

Mathias wrote:This afternoon (GMT -1) I will meet for the first time witht the PIC developer here in Vienna, who has a dev. machine for ages now. I will tie him up, and if needed torture him, until the Game Port and the PS/2 will work perfectly. ;)

:lol: please leave at least one hand untied so he can type out the code.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby Mathias » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:27 pm

wongck wrote: :lol: please leave at least one hand untied so he can type out the code.

Ah, ok, you are right. Good hint, thanks! Any further idea how I´ll get the recent PIC assembler into his brain?
;)
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

oehansen
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:05 pm

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby oehansen » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:01 am

Hammer it in?

User avatar
tyk
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:55 pm

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby tyk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:15 pm

MIDI and more MIDI through ROM-port (with LOG 3), Printer Port (with SMP24), Serial port (with Export) and SCSI (some MIDI instruments with SCSI-port support sound dumps with SCSI)

User avatar
tyk
Atari User
Atari User
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:55 pm

Re: Which ports should be cared of first?

Postby tyk » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:17 pm

..and RS-422 (Midman Mini Macman works with Cubase) :D


Social Media

     

Return to “FireBee”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron