DSP for Firebee

All things related to the Atari Coldfire Project

Moderators: Mathias, Mug UK, moondog/.tSCc., [ProToS], Galvez, Moderator Team

User avatar
AtariSociety
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:38 pm

DSP for Firebee

Postby AtariSociety » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:25 am

One thing the Falcon had is a DSP so sound could have some good things processed by.

Will or can the Firebee have/support a DSP chip?

I noticed on a video on YouTube about Firebee in multitasking action that the music being played skipped quite a bit. This could be taken care of with DSP.

Skipping anything drives me nuts. hehehe

My old NeXTcube has DSP and mp3 play perfectly even with an old 68040.

Just curious.

TJ

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Mathias » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:06 am

Here is the partially done DSP for the FireBee:
http://atariforge.org/gf/project/firebe ... s%2FDSP%2F

We always planned to include it, but as nobody of the VHDL-Gurus has time to work on it, we are begging for help from VHDL developers – for two years now.

So once again; if anybody knows an VHDL developer, or has the chance to motivate somebody to help the ACP regarding the FPGA, please do so!
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 11990
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby wongck » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:04 am

what is needed to upgrade the FB ?
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

Dal
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4079
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:31 am
Location: Cheltenham, UK
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Dal » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:54 am

Normally, you just need the latest firmware and flash tool - same as updating your CT60.
If things go bad, then you may need a JTAG cable (FPGA) and possibly a BDM cable(BaS/EmuTOS) too.
TT030: 4MB/16MB + Crazy Dots, Mega"SST" 12, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby mfro » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:59 am

Dal wrote:Normally, you just need the latest firmware and flash tool - same as updating your CT60.
If things go bad, then you may need a JTAG cable (FPGA) and possibly a BDM cable(BaS/EmuTOS) too.


You do not need a JTAG cable - everything can/must be flashed through BDM currently in case you managed to screw up flash with the flash tool.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 11990
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby wongck » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:30 pm

Meaning that I cannot use my Xilinx serial programming cables.. :(

The reason I asked is that this ought to be the FPGA and needs like a Xilinx cable to program it.
I have not seen any information on how to do this for the FB.
(probably I have not looked for it hard enough, or not desperately needing to do it).
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Mathias » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:55 pm

You can flash your FLASH ROM by Didiers software of course. Only if something went bad, or if you have an very early FireBee without FireTOS you need to use some BDM programmer. For example the cheap and Open Source TBLCF with USB cable.
So you can reflash the FireBee form another computer, and flash all ROM components - like TOS or the FPGA confog – into the FLASH. The JTAG FPGA is only needed if you like to change the FPGA config while it´s running, and some other special cases, means if you are an very experianced FPGA developer, and reflshing doesn´t do the job for you.
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 11990
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby wongck » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:09 am

Ok, so Didier's flash tool can do all these.
Seems much easier than the CT63 then.
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2593
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby alexh » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:01 pm

What state is the DSP for Firebee in?

Is the author Torlus still active?

Does it compile, elaborate and synthesise?

Has it ever been integrated into the FPGA?

How representative of the real thing is it? 20% complete? 50% complete? 90% complete?

If it is in a good enough state, I could give a few hours of my time to try to clean it up enough to get it simulating against a C-model

vido
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby vido » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:43 pm

I have no idea about the status of DSP implementation but it would be really great if you would be able to continue started project!
Maybe to look also into some other bugs of the FireBee FPGA. Especialy Videl emulation.

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby mfro » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:51 pm

The DSP implementation in the Firebee's FPGA config is basically nonexistent. Every activity that brings the FPGA config forward ist more than welcome.

User avatar
Ragstaff
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:39 am
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Ragstaff » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:14 am

Bumping an old thread but just curious, why implement DSP in VHDL/FPGA when real 56k DSP chips are not very expensive? At least, looking on NXP/Freescale/Motorola's website they still seem to be selling DSP's in the 56k / Symphony family for $5 - $10 per unit.
Sorry if it's a stupid question, I don't know if the Firebee has an expansion slot to add it with, external to the FPGA

vido
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby vido » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:29 am

I would also like to see hardware solution of this problem. Only problem I see is that then not all FireBees would have DSP so there is less chance to see new software using DSP.
On the other hand, real DSP would be much more powerfull.

alienkidmj12
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby alienkidmj12 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:04 pm

it would be cool to have this, its been so long with no news :(

alienkidmj12
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby alienkidmj12 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:04 pm

any progress on the dsp code ? ;)

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Mathias » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:54 pm

alienkidmj12 wrote:any progress on the dsp code ? ;)

How should there be any progress, when nobody is working on it?

You need to motivate some experianced VHDL developer. Find some of them, and ask kindly for contribution. Take the link of our Open Source DSP that was started years ago by Matthias Alles (2nd posting in this thread), and show it to some potential developers.

Perhaps you can even try to contact Matthias directly, perhaps if he sees that there are really several users interrested, he will continue, who knows , …
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby mfro » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:54 am

For me, the question is: if you had it, what would you want to do with it? Something serious or is it just a "wanna have it"?

A DSP implementation on the FPGA in the Firebee will always be seriously limited by the relatively slow FlexBus access (this would be the same with an externally attached DSP board, no matter how fast it would be). I wouldn't expect much additional performance compared to an original Falcon (maybe twice at best).

Considered the DSP implementation would be available, the next thing you'd probably miss is the Falcon's sound matrix implementation (which isn't there currently as well).

If you want to do serious DSP-like work on the Firebee, you are way better off using the ColdFire's internal EMAC unit that I'd (conservatively) estimate to like up to 100x faster at peak and much easier to code. With appropriate coding, the EMAC unit with it's four separate accumulators can work independently/in parallel from/to the ColdFire and make use of the (currently mostly unused) internal fast SRAM. And the best thing with it is: its readily available.

My personal conclusion is: even if I could do the FPGA implementation (which I cannot), I'd consider the DSP one of the least important things to finish on the Firebee's FPGA implementation. There are other, more important extensions/fixes that need to get done first, IMHO (like the double line video modes, for example).

Mathias
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Mathias » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:41 am

I belive the aim is to use Falcon applications at the FireBee that need the DSP to work, and will not recive any update/addjustments/improvements anymore.

But sure; for serious recent applications the EMAC unit is a far better solution.

Of course we are glad about every contribution, and if some developer shows up who is interrested in configuring the DSP inside the FPGA, we will not order him to do the video modes first. But it is a moot point, as there is no VHDL developer at all who is constantly wokring on the FireBees FPGA, ...
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:11 pm

Based on testing a lot of Falcon demos/games/apps for Hatari Falcon support, many of the DSP using programs seem to be pretty particular about the CPU <-> DSP speed matching pretty accurately to real Falcon. -> There will probably be many things that won't work even with FPGA DSP implementation (and fixed Videl implementation), because Firebee CPU is so much faster.

joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 3668
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway
Contact:

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby joska » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:48 am

mfro wrote:Considered the DSP implementation would be available, the next thing you'd probably miss is the Falcon's sound matrix implementation (which isn't there currently as well).


Exactly. The Firebee does not have Falcon compatible sound hardware, and without hardware modifications it never can. So the DSP is pretty much useless and (IMO) a waste of developer resources.
Jo Even

Firebee - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: DSP for Firebee

Postby mfro » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:01 pm

joska wrote:
mfro wrote:Considered the DSP implementation would be available, the next thing you'd probably miss is the Falcon's sound matrix implementation (which isn't there currently as well).


Exactly. The Firebee does not have Falcon compatible sound hardware, and without hardware modifications it never can.

Correct.

joska wrote:So the DSP is pretty much useless and (IMO) a waste of developer resources.


Something I wouldn't *completely* agree to.

The missing Falcon sound matrix (that basically implements the configurable connections between the Falcon's A/D and D/A converters and the DSP) could be implemented using the Firebee's AC'97 chip (that has far superior A/D and D/A components) connected to the ColdFire's PSC which could feed the DSP (or the ColdFire itself) using one (or more) of the Coldfire's 16 DMA channels without CPU load. With proper coding, this could be made Falcon compatible at least at the XBIOS level, IMHO. If done right, it would leave the final decision whether to use the EMAC or the DSP (or even both) for sound effects to the developer.

I'm still at the strong opinion that the FireBee's hardware is way more versatile and powerful the Falcon ever was, but needs to be properly coded. But 'just' the DSP implementation is not enough by far.


Social Media

     

Return to “FireBee”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests