Original ST TOS.

A section to cover all the different problems encountered by running game x on system y! Whether it's as simple as a non-STE compatible game through to h/drive installable games. Discuss them all in here.

Moderator: Moderator Team

Sai
Atarian
Atarian
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:07 pm

Original ST TOS.

Postby Sai » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:10 pm

Hey, I apologise if this isn't the correct place since I'm new here. But does anyone know how to set up a TOS and write it to a floppy? I know how to write it but getting the OG TOS that is compatible seems completely impossible since whenever I try to load it it does not work in 2 ways.

A: it goes to a flickering screen (Resolution issue)
B: it say it's not a valid file and or doesn't make the driver respond. Although the driver works.

Hopefully someone can help.

User avatar
Zogging Hell
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby Zogging Hell » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:07 pm

Can you explain a bit more about what you are trying to do? What hardware or software are you trying to do this with? Are you trying to load the original disk based TOS from a floppy disk? Is this on a very early ST with the right ROM to load it or are you trying via a TOS loading program. Or are you using a emulator?
I've not used the original TOS on disk, though my understanding is that there is a small bit of the OS in read only memory in the early ST that loads a TOS image file from the disk. I don't think you write the image to disk so to speak, afaik it is a file that is on the disk like any other. This is certainly the way it works with TOS loaders for later TOS versions. It's not quite clear whether you think the ST needs a boot disk in the way a early Mac or the Amiga might, which usually it doesn't, apart from the original release model. Most STs have the OS built into memory (ROM) and it will load whenever a disk (of any description, except most games) is put in the drive. It will also load if you don't load anything for about 30 seconds.
Firebee, Falcon CT60, Milan 040, Falcon MkI, TT, Mega STe, Mega ST + Lots of STs of various flavours

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:35 pm

Really not clear what thread starter wants. What is original ST TOS ? Why need for it ?
Here is first TOS version (US) - ROM TOS part is very short, only 16 KB, and floppy image containing main part + Desktop , AES.
BOOTTOS.ZIP

You don't need to burn EPROMs with shorter file, may test it with only floppy disk where write ST image with proper SW - that means that you don't copy file what is in image, but write whole ST image file on floppy - that will make it autoboot and work properly.

Now, whole thing has only some historical sense - who wants to use very first TOS version, what additionally takes lot of RAM, much more than some ROM TOS ?
What may have sense is to use RAMTOS, SELTOS and install some newer TOS version.
http://atari.8bitchip.info/astopensw.php#seltos
http://atari.8bitchip.info/tosload.htm
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:15 am

Kind of a weird request, since from my understanding the most compatible TOS is more like the 1.04 version, right? 1.02 had issues with hard drives and 1.0 took up precious RAM because it was only partially in TOS.

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:35 am

I would not say that TOS 1.04 is most compatible. Maybe it is 1.02 considering gaming. But difference is small, and 1.04 has lot of benefits over 1.02, so I use it for some purposes mostly and recommend it to people.
TOS 1.00 actually has 2 versions: floppy based and ROM based. Floppy based was supplied with early Ataris in 1985, which had only 16 KB ROM. And it really took lot of RAM. But ROM based TOS 1.00, what is far more spread takes as much RAM as other versions, actually even little less.
Here can see some tables of RAM usage by different TOS versions: http://atari.8bitchip.info/playfhd.html
Last edited by AtariZoll on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

siriushardware
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:55 pm
Location: UK

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby siriushardware » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:37 pm

People may sometimes want to run an old TOS to run old software which was hard coded to run on it and then broken by later versions of TOS.

A good example would be the original version of Arkanoid which came with my STFM, which originally had TOS 1.0 (in ROM). When I upgraded to TOS 1.4, I noticed that the left / right control of the 'bat' no longer worked and when I looked into it it was because the programmers had directly read the mouse X position from the RAM location where TOS 1.0 kept it.

Problem was, in TOS 1.4 that same realtime mouse X position was kept in a different RAM location. I believe I copied my original disk and patched the copy to read from the correct location for TOS1.4, but I have no doubt later versions were amended to work in a more cross-TOS compatible way.

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:46 pm

Yes, what you described about Arkanoid is present in many games. + diverse other poorly coded mouse, joystick and even keyboard reading routines. I say poorly coded because there is good way how to do it complete TOS version independant. But it seems that literature about it was not available or known for many SW houses, programmers. Even STOS suffers from same problem.
Here can DL some games with updates for better work on all TOS versions (1.xx-2.06 normally): http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTGA/astgam.php
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:19 pm

Btw. I just tried Oids from http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/oidss.html

And it doesn't work, at least with Hatari 2.0. I select "Novoids" galaxy and the saved people don't run to to spaceship, they're completely immobile.

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:34 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:Btw. I just tried Oids from http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/oidss.html

And it doesn't work, at least with Hatari 2.0. I select "Novoids" galaxy and the saved people don't run to to spaceship, they're completely immobile.

Probably more important is what TOS version you used ?
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 pm

AtariZoll wrote:
Eero Tamminen wrote:Btw. I just tried Oids from http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/oidss.html

And it doesn't work, at least with Hatari 2.0. I select "Novoids" galaxy and the saved people don't run to to spaceship, they're completely immobile.

Probably more important is what TOS version you used ?


I tried 1.62/STe and 1.04/ST, with 4MB and 1MB, Hatari's oldUAE and WinUAE CPU cores. Same problem with all of them (and not just with Novoids galaxy). And it's just not rescued people which don't move, missiles fired at me don't move either...

Could somebody tests above download and tell one configuration where things work?

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Wed May 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Oids is one of my favorite games, I'll test it on Hatari and my various hardware Ataris when I get home and let you know.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Thu May 18, 2017 7:36 am

So I've now tried this on Hatari (2.0) with Falcon (TOS 4.04), ST (1.04), Mega STe (2.06).

With the exception of the Falcon, which crashed during the FTL animation, I played until I could open a prison, and indeed the people just don't move.

On the real hardware front, I tested it on my TT030 (TOS 3.06) and my 1040 STe (TOS 2.06). One thing I noticed, is the ship when it flies out didn't stutter the sound on the TT (I don't have speakers connected to the 1040STe, but the internal speaker was working on the TT), but it still didn't have moving characters. Later after I got into the game, right after I blew up the first thing, the sound on the TT030 died.

On a side note, I definitely need to replace capacitors in my 1040STe, it was getting lines through the display this time around, pretty sure it wasn't last time I was using it... but it had other issues anyhow.

@AtariZoll, your HD conversions are awesome, but has anyone told you that the intro 'cover screen' (which is absolutely amazing looking on the ST) is displayed as utter garbage on a TT?

I should start making a list so I can add to the adapted games list.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Thu May 18, 2017 7:37 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:Btw. I just tried Oids from http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/oidss.html

And it doesn't work, at least with Hatari 2.0. I select "Novoids" galaxy and the saved people don't run to to spaceship, they're completely immobile.


Ha, it was only my last run when I finally picked Novoids, I was trying to do it on Cosmoids and was thinking 'holy crap, I don't remember this game being this hard until later!' It has that problem throughout the game though.

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Thu May 18, 2017 8:25 am

leech wrote:So I've now tried this on Hatari (2.0) with Falcon (TOS 4.04), ST (1.04), Mega STe (2.06).
....
@AtariZoll, your HD conversions are awesome, but has anyone told you that the intro 'cover screen' (which is absolutely amazing looking on the ST) is displayed as utter garbage on a TT?
I should start making a list so I can add to the adapted games list.

I don't see about which intro cover screen you talk. In last 5 years I make separated cover screens for ST, STE and TT+Falcon. So, there is usually 3 screen file in 1 game's package (2 HST and 1 BMP (standard PC BMP format). I tested it on real TT, and was fine. So, please give me exact title where it is not OK, pardon, utter garbage. Ah, I see the OIDS - but it is not listed as TT compatible - it's from 2008, and I had not access to any TT then.
Will be reworked soon. I need more time for that because testings.
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Thu May 18, 2017 8:39 am

AtariZoll wrote:
leech wrote:So I've now tried this on Hatari (2.0) with Falcon (TOS 4.04), ST (1.04), Mega STe (2.06).
....
@AtariZoll, your HD conversions are awesome, but has anyone told you that the intro 'cover screen' (which is absolutely amazing looking on the ST) is displayed as utter garbage on a TT?
I should start making a list so I can add to the adapted games list.

I don't see about which intro cover screen you talk. In last 5 years I make separated cover screens for ST, STE and TT+Falcon. So, there is usually 3 screen file in 1 game's package (2 HST and 1 BMP (standard PC BMP format). I tested it on real TT, and was fine. So, please give me exact title where it is not OK, pardon, utter garbage. Ah, I see the OIDS - but it is not listed as TT compatible - it's from 2008, and I had not access to any TT then.
Will be reworked soon. I need more time for that because testings.


Thanks, yeah that one looks like my computer barfed a bunch of flickering things. That makes perfect sense why the older convesions don't show as having anything for TT. Most of the ones I tried must have been older, because I think a lot do that, from the ones I have tried.

Thanks for everything though, you do awesome work! Ha, sorry about the utter garbage comment, but it is a pretty apt description of that screenshot. Kind of reminds me of the decompression screens common in a lot of games.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Thu May 18, 2017 8:43 am

For the thread starter, I don't think this issue is with the TOS version. I used to play OIDS from floppy on my Mega STe with 2.06 and it worked fine. I will see if I can find my dosk and hope it still works, and maybe I can make an image of it.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu May 18, 2017 7:25 pm

Rescued people not running to the ship, and missiles not flying (even on ST) is a bit more serious problem for Oids playing that the TT-specific intro screen problem, although one would notice that first. :-)

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Thu May 18, 2017 8:13 pm

Ha, yes. I actually use my TT now more because of all the conversions working a little better on it than my 1040STe, though I think that's only due to needing to fix my 1040... got it somewhat recently, but it seems to crash on things that work fine on the TT (like battlechess)

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 am

leech wrote:... but it is a pretty apt description of that screenshot. Kind of reminds me of the decompression screens common in a lot of games.

It's just because hi-color displaying on some ST(E) is very CPU timing sensitive. You get garbage on Mega STE at 16MHz too.
I saw some cases of bad decompression on Falcon, TT (68030 CPU). And it was caused by so called "pipeline bug" on SW. Maupiti Islands, Parasol Stars...
But it is fixed in my later releases.
Started work on OIDS - it is well copy protected, and it seems that some of it activates in later stage(s). + Need to rework whole loading system of it for HAGA. May I count on you for tests ?
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Fri May 19, 2017 5:37 pm

Yeah, would be glad to test it out!

I kind of wondered if it was kicking in during the giant OIDS animation (with the bouncing ball) because there is a part where the colour palette changes, and it almost looks like it froze (though the ball still bounces, but then it loads up. I don't recall that happening on the cracked version I had back in the day (but then again it's been a few decades since I played it).

AtariZoll
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2461
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby AtariZoll » Sun May 21, 2017 7:05 pm

leech wrote:Yeah, would be glad to test it out!
I kind of wondered if it was kicking in during the giant OIDS animation (with the bouncing ball) because there is a part where the colour palette changes, and it almost looks like it froze (though the ball still bounces, but then it loads up. I don't recall that happening on the cracked version I had back in the day (but then again it's been a few decades since I played it).


I did updated versions. Started new thread about: http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31699&p=318760#p318760
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.

User avatar
leech
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Original ST TOS.

Postby leech » Sun May 21, 2017 10:09 pm

Sweet, thanks! Will report in that thread.


Social Media

     

Return to “Games - Compatibility Issues etc.”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests