Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

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mikro
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby mikro » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:03 am

Pretty cool table. I just wish aranym mailing list is working, this is very valuable input for developers. If you want to make this an "absolute heaven", add also clean EmuTOS, without MiNT. So you'd have:

TOS 4.04 (VDI, NVDI, fVDI) (6 columns) -- as it is now
EmuTOS (the same -- not sure whether EmuTOS likes NVDI, worth a try; if not, just skip it) -- completely new table
TOS 4.04 + FreeMiNT/XaAES (VDI, NVDI, fVDI) -- you're missing only plain VDI
EmuTOS + FreeMiNT/XaAES (same) -- you're missing only plain VDI

This would provide a killer guide for further development I think, nobody has ever done such thorough comparison.

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby Faucon2001 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:46 pm

Here is the full benchmark completed.
I have updated my test setup to Emutos 0.9.7 in order to compare the last version, just in case.
Image
http://www.philippeworld.net/ftp/Docs/Aranym-bench-TOS.xls
Emutos doesn't seem to like NVDI as it crashed with a "Panic Bus Error", also I didn't manage to configure XaAES to work in 256 colors under plain VDI for Emutos, nor in 16 colors, so Emutos + Mint + VDI tests have been done in B&W, explaining the increase of performance for VDI and 3D.
So same questions as before :
Why single task TOS don't benefit of JIT boost?
Why single task TOS 4.04 has VDI and disk access heavily impacted by JIT mode?
Why Mint with TOS 4.04 has only the disk access impacted by JIT but not the VDI?

I know that part of the answer comes from Native Features which are managed by Mint and Emutos, and not by TOS 4.04, but I guess that there is something else.
Could native features be implemented (patched) on TOS 4.04? Could partition mode, which is way faster than IDE emulation, be patch on TOS 4.04?
Videl emulation is eating a lot of processing power (nothing new) and limited in bit depth : can an ET4000 emulation be implemented as NVDI comes with the necessary drivers? Would it be a too big development? By the way, is Aranym still developed?
For a hardcore user of Mint + FVDI my questions may sound strange, but, TOS 4.04 + NVDI offers a far better compatibility ( Calamus SL is working for example) at the cost of a big drop in performance for now.
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby Faucon2001 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:03 pm

I have tried to post it on Aranym mailing list but it seems dead : is it normal?
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby mikro » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:23 pm

Faucon2001 wrote:I have tried to post it on Aranym mailing list but it seems dead : is it normal?

Unfortunately, it is "normal". I've contacted Petr Stehlik about it, he seems to be trying to consolidate situation somehow but right now, the list is dead and therefore many users and developers think the whole project is. :-/

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby mikro » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:49 pm

I've posted your results to the FreeMiNT ML (as you might have noticed), maybe someone will shed some light on this. Thanks for interesting research!

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby Eero Tamminen » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:46 pm

Faucon2001 wrote:Here is the full benchmark completed.


Summary...

When not using JIT:
* fVDI speeds up every test, also CPU, FPU, Disk and memory test. Impact is largest in memory test, so I assume it to be memory bandwidth saved from skipping Videl screen update (maybe not so much skipping the register updates Mikro mentioned)
* EmuTOS VDI operations are a bit slower than with TOS v4 which is already known, but why memory tests are a lot slower on EmuTOS?
* EmuTOS doubles Disk test performance compared to TOS v4 even without MiNT (better caching?)
* MiNT slows down disk operations a lot, both for EmuTOS & TOS v4

When using JIT:
* Above differences are magnified
* It's enough to have either fVDI or NVDI to prevent VDI slowdown with JIT
* Disk speed slows down with TOS v4, keeps same with plain EmuTOS, and speeds up a lot with EmuTOS/MiNT

What happens in EmuTOS/MiNT case is that EmuTOS queries if the system support XHDI NatFeats, and when does, EmuTOS lets MiNT & Aranym NatFeats backend handle the disk accesses.

Faucon2001 wrote:I know that part of the answer comes from Native Features which are managed by Mint and Emutos, and not by TOS 4.04, but I guess that there is something else.
Could native features be implemented (patched) on TOS 4.04? Could partition mode, which is way faster than IDE emulation, be patch on TOS 4.04?
Videl emulation is eating a lot of processing power (nothing new) and limited in bit depth : can an ET4000 emulation be implemented as NVDI comes with the necessary drivers? Would it be a too big development? By the way, is Aranym still developed?
For a hardcore user of Mint + FVDI my questions may sound strange, but, TOS 4.04 + NVDI offers a far better compatibility ( Calamus SL is working for example) at the cost of a big drop in performance for now.


I don't think there's any point in beating a (proprietary) dead horse.

If you find some compatibility issue with EmuTOS, report it to EmuTOS developers, they're quite active.

And if some SW doesn't work with fVDI / Aranym VDI NatFeats, then those should be fixed. VDI & MiNT's extended GEMDOS API are large so there can be bugs...

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby OL » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:50 pm

As Aranym is wrote, each exception broke JIT, so hardware emulation reduce highly speed sometime it is even slower than without. One component that reduce highly the speed is the Blitter.


Olivier

Faucon2001 wrote:Here is the full benchmark completed.
I have updated my test setup to Emutos 0.9.7 in order to compare the last version, just in case.
Image
http://www.philippeworld.net/ftp/Docs/Aranym-bench-TOS.xls
Emutos doesn't seem to like NVDI as it crashed with a "Panic Bus Error", also I didn't manage to configure XaAES to work in 256 colors under plain VDI for Emutos, nor in 16 colors, so Emutos + Mint + VDI tests have been done in B&W, explaining the increase of performance for VDI and 3D.
So same questions as before :
Why single task TOS don't benefit of JIT boost?
Why single task TOS 4.04 has VDI and disk access heavily impacted by JIT mode?
Why Mint with TOS 4.04 has only the disk access impacted by JIT but not the VDI?

I know that part of the answer comes from Native Features which are managed by Mint and Emutos, and not by TOS 4.04, but I guess that there is something else.
Could native features be implemented (patched) on TOS 4.04? Could partition mode, which is way faster than IDE emulation, be patch on TOS 4.04?
Videl emulation is eating a lot of processing power (nothing new) and limited in bit depth : can an ET4000 emulation be implemented as NVDI comes with the necessary drivers? Would it be a too big development? By the way, is Aranym still developed?
For a hardcore user of Mint + FVDI my questions may sound strange, but, TOS 4.04 + NVDI offers a far better compatibility ( Calamus SL is working for example) at the cost of a big drop in performance for now.
OL

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby anodyne » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:30 pm

Faucon2001 wrote:Here is the full benchmark completed.
I have updated my test setup to Emutos 0.9.7 in order to compare the last version, just in case.

Emutos doesn't seem to like NVDI as it crashed with a "Panic Bus Error"

I just installed NVDI 5 on my test Aranym setup with the very latest EmuTOS (current development version). As long as I disable COPS.ACC, it seems to work OK. At least you can probably benchmark it. I doubt that anything has changed since 0.9.7 that would affect this.

However you should be aware that NVDI assumes that memory at a certain address is free for it to use. The address used varies depending on the value of the _VDO cookie but is hard-coded into NVDI. The address is *not* free under EmuTOS, so NVDI partially overwrites some EmuTOS variables. Thus the system may not be stable :-(.

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby Faucon2001 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:40 pm

In fact I can boot emutos with NVDI, but when I launch Kronos it crashes during the calibration phase. It looks like the issue you mentioned.
Emutos + Mint + NVDI give me a black screen and then freeze.
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby wongck » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:34 pm

Ha ha NVDI issues again.
Sad to see an unsupported software being relied on so much.
May be someone should revamp fvdi to be as capable as NVDI.

BTW, does anyone knows if the plumbing for printing is inside fvdi ?
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby Faucon2001 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:48 am

wongck wrote:Ha ha NVDI issues again.
Sad to see an unsupported software being relied on so much.
May be someone should revamp fvdi to be as capable as NVDI.

It would be great. Actually I don't know if somebody took back the development. Last version I saw was from Vincent Rivière 3 years ago, mainly bug fix.

wongck wrote:BTW, does anyone knows if the plumbing for printing is inside fvdi ?

As far as I can remember, no. Also some functions from NVDI are missing too.
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby paulwratt » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:32 pm

there is basic printer support, but fVDI has option to "pass-thru" printing to NDVI

I hope to see new release of fVDI with all drivers (mentioned earlier by Eero) sometime in near future

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby wongck » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:49 am

paulwratt wrote:there is basic printer support, but fVDI has option to "pass-thru" printing to NDVI
I hope to see new release of fVDI with all drivers (mentioned earlier by Eero) sometime in near future

Great if there is basic printer support I will have to check it out, some time after Chinese New Year, I hope to get some free time.
Eero said there will be a version with all drivers ?
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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:25 pm

wongck wrote:Eero said there will be a version with all drivers ?


No, I said that I've never seen one, with any of the newer fVDI versions. Those builds have all been for Aranym or extended video cards for some reason.

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Re: Aranym, fVDI and Linux MiNT 18.3

Postby wongck » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:12 am

Thanks for the clarifications.
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