What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

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What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby sonofman » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:38 pm

Hi!

I'm new here. I am planing to make a "compatibility layer" so that some TOS programs can be used in Windows and on Linux. And I'm are open to what programs that you want to run or why you want to run them in a window on your modern computer, and why that may be useful.

So some TOS applications will open in a new window on in Windows and Linux (and may be extended by others later on).

What I have at the moment is hardware graphics accelerated virtual machine, that can open windows and draw graphics on the screen, and can use the mouse and keyboard and other stuff like sound. And I have a computer language for it, but other languages might be added later on by someone else.

This will be used to get old useful programs, to run like any other program on your computer. Some support for other 68000 based programs from other computers might also get supported later on.

I'm at the moment planning for a new 68000 JIT recompiler, that will run 68000 programs faster than is possible in a normal 68000 emulator. I have a really fast VM, so this attempt to get TOS programs running on it, is to get applications for this VM. This VM is for getting a fast high security environment with memory protection, where the user can select what the applications might be able to do.

The compatibility layer can be compiled to Windows, Linux, OSX and Android and iOS. But as I only has a Linux and a windows machine, these will be the only supported platforms until this can be changed. Due to the fast implementation, raspberry pi might be a good platform also. So this VM was made to port other languages to it, and make programs fast under a secure environment, with easier to use functionality, than the host operating system has. And applications may then run on different platforms without recompiling them.

This VM was made to make it easier to write own applications, and give different languages new functionality, that the underlying OS might not have support for. And in this case its GEM application made for 68000.

This GEM part of the VM will have focus on high quality printouts and line-drawing for screen and printer, and support for MIDI. The focus is not to get all TOS applications running, but only them that are somewhat useful. So you are welcome with suggestions on what programs you want to use?

Note; that this VM has no code repository yet. I have held it back to secure high speed and security, and be able to make necessary changes without compromises. And I have been busy researching and developing a compiler and a new language, and this VM at the same time, so I might be busy making other things than making TOS applications run. So the priority is to make this VM fast, secure and easy to port to other platforms, and get support form programming in other languages. So languages made for 68000 might be used to develop programs for this VM, and run programs used in this VM run on many different platforms. So It's about getting fast and secure programs, and make it easy to make fast compatible programs that can run on the most common platforms.

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby BlankVector » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:32 pm

Nice project.

FYI, ARAnyM and WinUAE already feature a very fast 680x0 JIT. That's Free Software.

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:31 pm

Personally I don't see much use for that. Productivity apps and games that had clean VDI/AES/GEMDOS usage, do have nowadays more advanced replacements available as free / open source software.

Some of the OS call-wise unclean SW is still interesting as I don't think all of them have good replacements. However, for supporting them on Windows, would require full emulation, not partial. -> I think adding Windows MIDI support to Hatari emulator would be more interesting option (Hatari supports MIDI in/out only on Linux).
Last edited by Eero Tamminen on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:05 am

I recommend that try first Gemulator. Furthermore, it may be now open source, so maybe instead starting it from 0 to ...
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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby sonofman » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:45 am

Why I want to do this is maybe not that obvious.

I made a new computer language that make it possible to write totally platform independent programs. Binaries will run on all modern platforms, much like Java. And you can also start programs in text form.

And now that I have made my language compiler, I wanted to make a GUI toolkit for it. So my thought was to base that on GEM. But as most GEM applications is for atari, so I thought that it's best to make it compatible with GEM used on Atari. And to make sure that it's compatible, I thought it was easiest to be able to run 68000 code in this VM, so I get real TOS application running in my GEM implementation, and make sure it's compatible that way. So this is to save me time to make the implementation.

So I'm going to do this. That this VM will run clean TOS programs is only a side effect.

But the interesting part about it, is that it will make clean GEM applications run in a window on any OS, and behave as any other application on your computer. So TOS applications will not need an emulation of TOS, it's calls will access the real OS on your computer directly. Much like how Wine can run Windows applications in Linux, without speed penalties, because wine isn't a OS. So programs will run faster than is possible in a emulator, because is won't run TOS in a emulation.

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby spiny » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:11 am

Wouldn't it be better to work with the STeem SSE / Hatari guys to improve the current emulators ?

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby shoggoth » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:21 am

I'd start with the dynamic CPU core from the Executor project. It's open source, accurate, and very efficient. It lacks an mmu though.
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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:45 am

Idea self is OK - in theory, I guess :-)
I'm afraid that there will be plenty of problems. First problem is actually title of this thread. You ask what TOS programs .. ? Everyone know that we can do that with diverse emulators. In times when PCs were not so fast I liked to use Gemulator. Now even cycle accurate emulators like Steem and Hatari can run some Atari SW 20-50x faster than 8 MHz ST.
But I can recommend some, what can be good for tests, development:
Dick Doctor (Antic 1986) - really simple, uses not much diverse AES calls. And you will need to deal with disk access translation too, of course.
QINDEX22.PRG - test program for AES speed
I have some simple programs, with sources: http://atari.8bitchip.info/astopensw.php
ROMSPLIT would be best for start, I guess.
I understand what you talk about speed (from experience :-) ), but there will be lot of work, I'm sure.
To run some Atari SW you need not only to deal with GUI (GEM/AES), but BIOS, XBIOS, filesystem calls (GEMDOS), timers, converting video, etc ...
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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby vido » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:49 pm

I really like what you are doing. Running GEM calls native is ok. I am looking forward to see what you will achieve.
But there is a thing I would really like to see. Runnint EmuTOS natively on x86 or better ARM natively. After that ofcourse also MiNT, desktop replacements, ...

I dream ... ;)

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby Faucon2001 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:18 pm

We share the same dream Vido :-)
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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby sonofman » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:27 pm

Well someone could probably make a fork of Hatari and EmuTOS, and make that to one single project. To make something that some of you mention, changes has to be made in Hatari so it includes the EmuTOS source code, and then rewrite the VDI calls in EmuTOS, so VDI calls write directly to the screen and don't run 68000 code, but use the graphics card with hardware acceleration instead when possible. That may improve graphics operations a lot, maybe about 10 to 100 times faster. You get rid both the slowdowns by not using a CPU emulation and using the graphics card instead of the native CPU (the x86 processor).

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:43 am

I think that graphic operations could be executed even 10000x faster in some cases. What I talking ? Calculate how much some quad core 4 GHz CPU is faster than 8 MHz 68000 - only clock ratio is 500x . 4 cores mean 2000x, but there is more - less cycles per instruction, 64-bitness, SSE, FPU .... So, some things may execute really 10000 faster. Same stays for graphic.

So, I think that speed is least problem here. I don't think that EmuTOS is good base (well, some will complain, I guess :D ). Really will help not much. What is needed is translation of all TOS calls - so BIOS, XBIOS, GEMDOS, AES, VDI ... + some level of HW support - Vblank, timers .

Aranym is where EmuTOS is of use.
All in all, speed should be less to care about in this case. What is more interesting is that nobody proposed any Atari TOS SW so far what would be of benefit in modern OS.
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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby mfro » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:25 am

AtariZoll wrote:... So, some things may execute really 10000 faster. Same stays for graphic ...


Would disagree here.

Actually, I'd even rate the whole thing pretty much pointless (besides the self-educating aspect of course) since most of the things are already part of Aranym more or less when all available NatFeats drivers are in use (and - although it's pretty fast - it's far from 10000x faster).

I would assume investing the effort into additional NatFeats support (like the AES, for example) much more profitable.

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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:33 am

"Some things" was told - if CPU code can be efficiently translated (compiled), and not interpreted as in emulators, it can be for sure 10000x faster. Modern graphic cards are incredibly powerful.
I agree about said that investing in Aranym would be more useful. But that is not exactly the same concept, so let OP to prove that we are wrong.
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Re: What TOS programs would be usefull on Windows and Linux

Postby calimero » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:48 am

@atariZoll I think you misunderstood mrfo " it's far from 10000x faster)" - he refer to Aranym.

Regarding sonofmans idea, I love it. Why do you made new language, what is specific about it? (To answer my self, I'quote Alan Kay: anyone serious about prohramming should write his one language :)).

"Problem" with atari software is that anything really good already exist on Windows/Mac: Calamus, Cubase, Logic, Papyrus, PhotoLine...

But I really would like to see Signum, STad, STeve, german Protext, original Cubase as standalone application on Windows (Linux/Mac). Problem is that none of them are GEM application :/

Another group of programs could be CADs. Like DynaCad, Technobox... There was lot of users of this programs back in a day and a lot of nostalgia for this program all over internet.
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