THE 'FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO' TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

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THE 'FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO' TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:07 pm

POST... ive said my piece
within the interface ideas section
i feel many people wish to get shot of floppies as an unreliable media bit like fags these days
everyone wants to ban them
maybe ban the floppy disk first

however keep it as a proper backup as you can just plug it back in


viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14694&start=40

see post 6 and below

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby rocket-dog » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:29 pm

Actually I like floppies. This is retro-computing forum. Why don't we get rid of the 680x0? Or what about TOS? Or beige cases? Heck the QWERTY keyboard is downright illogical, lets scrap that too? How are people without SD devices supposed to get software from web to PC to ST? Use parallel or serial, well they are old too??????

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby wongck » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:12 am

It is easy to get rid of it... toss it into the bin :lol:

and then take out EUR250 and replace it with this http://www.ipcas.com/products/usb-floppy-emulator-fdd-to-udd.html

I think you are looking for something like this?
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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby karlm » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:03 am


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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby rocket-dog » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:54 pm

I think it all went down hill when we got rid of punch cards and paper tape.

But yes what are you on about Mr Simbo sir?

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby rocket-dog » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:57 pm

wongck wrote:It is easy to get rid of it... toss it into the bin :lol:

and then take out EUR250 and replace it with this http://www.ipcas.com/products/usb-floppy-emulator-fdd-to-udd.html

I think you are looking for something like this?


That is clever. But why bother? I think we are into electronic carburettor territory here......... :mrgreen:

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby wongck » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:24 pm

I also saw one USB stick emulator for floppy drive that was from China. That one was USD 100+ IIRC.
So it's been done.
However, Simbo may be thinking of something bigger. He mention 30+MB in another tread.
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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby rocket-dog » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:14 pm

wongck wrote:I also saw one USB stick emulator for floppy drive that was from China. That one was USD 100+ IIRC.
So it's been done.
However, Simbo may be thinking of something bigger. He mention 30+MB in another tread.


What ever he comes up with will be interesting am I sure. But I have said before surely operating the equipment as it was designed is all part of the fun.

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby karlm » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:50 pm

I agree with rocket-dog, but it would be nice to say replace one of my SF314 internal mechanisms with one of those, as trying to find floppy disks these days is getting harder, and finding working, double sided disks is even more of a challenge ... and besides SD cards are practically given away nowadays ...

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:03 am

250 euros is a bit steep
i was thinking 20 euros or so is a better cost....
i see there is a couple of people who like the floppy

im sure in any topic there is always a couple ....??

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby AtariSince1989 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:16 am

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby wongck » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:05 am

simbo wrote:250 euros is a bit steep
i was thinking 20 euros or so is a better cost....


If you can make one at that price, I won't mind having one.

Floppy are essential in Atari since they are the 1st thing the system will setup for data exchange.
You need a floppy before you can run the harddisk.
(of course there is also the rom port, but I don't have any thing for that).
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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby Mug UK » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:30 am

AtariSince1989 wrote:Here is another for £60: http://atariamiga.free.fr/sdiskemul_e.php


That's the one that I have in my backup STE. Going to give it a demo at the next RCM meeting as TTowner did a good installation on it and the SD card interface is tucked into the back of the STE with just the SD card sticking out along with the joystick interface it needs to control it.
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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:16 pm

look


if you have a floppy disk involved

you limit storage to 720k only max is 2.88mb {1.44 practicle limit}
and slow down your process and progress in apps and game play etc

if you replace the controller and drive with a mcu plug in card
you can have 34mb as a single sdcard type drive 'buffer' that 'looks' like a floppy to the ataris tos
as its fat12 its also compatable to pc formats thats drive a and b so 68mb buffers or swap cards...
using a simple cable that connects between a usb card readers sdcard slot
and also the atari
you can connect both perminantly
something that has yet to be done
the only other change is an embeded picture for the icons and a single routine change to the tos floppy routines
to allow bigger sizes and remove seek rate limits
youll speed up an atari i would think 300% or more using this
remove the chip and drive plug in a board etc also free's physical space in your machine for easy internal expansions
like internal USD {ultra satan disk unique to atari!!!} popsel/pperas flash tos ...{really good!!!} for STE not been done but can be ...!!!!

if you fit both they will use LESS!!!! current than what is fitted already and work maybe 300-500% faster
also tos roms need to be 150ns for ste as the default ones fitted in atari X are 200 or 250ns
and too slow to use better memory if you use 70ns ram use 150 or 120ns eproms
for faster boot!!! and smoother init
!! one way to connect an atari to usb also

i like using my atari next door but i dont like having to null port texts via floppy etc
to the pc

half the time i write code without compile time so i need a fast way from a quiet machine and enviroment
for the pc to process the txt on spec
using a buffer like this is a cool way using triggered bat files of functions {.sys}

the .sys lives on the pc ><atari card and each time i send a file to the card the pc will copy it and compile and provide a feedback

ataris are silent and a good inputing media for code

thats all
no mission no ill intent maybe others feel the same way

if this topic annoyes anyone
feel free to vote on it and remove it

ill build the thing and use it myself...



a floppy disk unit curcomvents to a geriatric crossing the road with a zimmer
attached to a jumbo jet that flyes at 2mps when forced too
here at 16/32bit or even in 8 bit land
its the slowest transaction avalible to life
i think the floppy compaires to life its self
eventualy after enough retrys it gets to a point its sufficent and has best fit redundancie


i did some redementary calculations

i recon with this sdfloppy fitted with a good tos adjustment
youll get to tos desktop as fast as not having a floppy disk connected
unless the sdcard has an auto folder then it will look at it past er is the drive there er does it have a boot sector routines !!!

bootable from an internal sdcard to any os flashable to any o/s atari

nice
boots i think in 4 seconds or less

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby Shredder11 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:00 pm

Ahhh I see at last what you had in mind. Yes this does sound like a great idea, so long as the ST(e) can function 100% as before but with floppy images etc, or are images not required, just the same data but on a memory card?

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:40 pm

exactly this !!!
you can use an image handler acc easy!!! same way as other floppy emulators do
but this takes it many stages further these emulators are for multiplatform use
without o/s routine change to change sizes seeks and etc ... rotuines at source

you can structure it any way you want

even have the external floppy port controlled another way as an overide system
if exists etc...

lets all not spend the next few years dithering like a floppy does a dance...!!!

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby Shredder11 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:43 pm

simbo wrote:You can even have the external floppy port controlled another way as an overide system
if exists etc...


Nice so I could use my external Cumana drive like the internal one does, for convenience or in case of emergency.

I'm going off topic now but I would love to make the STe like a sort of baby Falcon, i.e. faster CPU, better audio maybe four 16bit tracks or eight could be possible if the bandwidth is there. That would leave graphics and networking although you can already do some reasonable stuff with a stock STe. We already have the old Replay 16 cartridge which can output four channels/tracks at once, so maybe four/eight tracks that could run inside Cubase or Cubase Audio Falcon (already runs on an STe). I feel a bit cheeky for even mentioning it as I have no electronics skills or knowledge to help out :oops: . I know that many people will instantly say, 'why not sync up a hardware multitrack?' which I have done in the past, but I get a kick out of seeing old gear perform beyond their supposed limits, plus I would actually find it useful in my setup.

Okay back on topic again! :contract:

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby wongck » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:10 pm

simbo wrote:bootable from an internal sdcard to any os flashable to any o/s atari


Yes, this will be a good device to have. Should be aiming to remove the reliance on floppies.
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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:55 pm

hi shredder
look for a 16mhz plcc mpu for the ste 68000 fn16 plcc
and double the clock to it
this will speed up processing
there are a few speed up boards that carry above the original u100 chip {plcc 68000 8mhz}
fn16's ....they ARE hard to find but you can find them in batches of 50 or 100 local to me
i was thinking if i had a pal who would help
i can make a board for the ste that allows 68000 16mhz and an fpu 68881/2{1 is ok here 2 is not} also a 16mhz chip would be fine
and 16mhz 68881 are easier to find cheeper in bulk
making this board would be quite an undertaking and one i could fund if i had enough orders first
obviously only avalible when a dev unit is proven
and this task is hard

we need another to take on one or other project

and this also stops people using some of the other addin units like atonce 286 or etc
the best that can be done here is add a fpu also
however the atonce wont use it only tos

many many issues making a speed up unit for ste... not all easily solved

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 pm

i have here

2 ste machines now fully operatinal

1 ste has an atonce emulator {handy for testing fat using actual fat tools like fdisk
so i can fdisk the new sdfloppy from the atari also just too check things and compare}
the other is a bog standard ste both are 4mb machines 70ns ram 150ns eproms

both have tos2.06 fitted on eproms

although i can flash a set to have 1.62 and v2.06

i have a falcon and a few st machines in various states
so a good test bed as others like megas use mostly the same disk access
ill start off by adding a bridge ic to allow the floppy dma and signals to be buffer ported
then we can all think of the right order for the signals to be created for ide access {easy logic map}
floppy ide is exactly the very same as ide drives except just a few signals changes
carefull thought needs done on this... with help....!!!!

so i decided to take a break for two weeks while i make a provisional pcb and a first prototype
for the bog standard st with tos 1.x its the best start im sure....as i want the 1bit byte bug present...

cya all soon


ill keep a look so help and offers of time for code and other stuff
are really appreciated

let us know !!!! :cheers:

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby karlm » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:20 am

Shredder11 wrote:I'm going off topic now but I would love to make the STe like a sort of baby Falcon, i.e. faster CPU, better audio maybe four 16bit tracks or eight could be possible if the bandwidth is there. That would leave graphics and networking although you can already do some reasonable stuff with a stock STe.


Have a look around for a Sparrow card - not sure if anyone has a real one in their hands, but it was for the STe, that replaced the 68000 with a daughter card, that basically took you up to a 4mb Falcon, albeit maybe not with the videl. Karl over at atari explorer has a little info on it - TOS 2.06 was patched to 2.07 to give the pseudo Falcon030 a start on life. It would be 'doable' but the biggest thing is finding 030's and 56001's to do it with ...

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=635

hmm seems atari explorer is AWOL ...

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby simbo » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:41 pm

turn an mega/ st/ste into a power tool
that outshines any falcon
add... a modified tos 3.x

hardware
---------
dual 68030 fn16 {32bit async bus} {+original 68000 used for tos control}
shared 32bit bus access and fpu access
4Xdma under dual mpu control
extra 32bit memory bus and 16 bit TT bus
over an above normal 8 bit tos ram bus
direct usb controller assigned to an mpu direct control
{so has its own dedicated 32 bit mcu / via dma channel of four/ and ide/sdcard/sata/pata controller}

all on one card placed over the cart port
and plugs into two simm slots or hardwire +some other signals
can be done with some tos tweaks

what we need is published source code for tos from atari themselfs
this will also stimulate there own markets that still exist in game development and knowlage base

but who? will make it ???

a 32 bit bus over and above a normal 16 bit tos bus
maybe??? easy

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby karlm » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:03 pm

(partial!?) source code for TOS 2.07/4.0x does exist ... I've got it somewhere ...

but hang on, isn't rebuilding an atari 'super' card just a little of overkill to replace a floppy mechanism!? I mean we were talking that 100euros was a bit steep to do even that and now we're building a new sparrow-like prototype?!

seems a little like this:

Image

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby Shredder11 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:28 pm

I like the idea of a super STe and who knows...it could strangely cost less than buying a Falcon! 8O

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Re: THE FLOPPY DRIVES MUST GO TOPIC !!! HOW TO GET RID OF IT ?

Postby wongck » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:15 pm

This only for STE?
I am thinking of trashing STFM as my backup machine.
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