CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

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CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby simbo » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:50 am

first

earth problems with local area distribution do happen
i can tell you a few hair raising stories about local transformers ive seen
bloated and then explode three days later
ones ive walk past and noticed a problem and phoned the emergency guys
and prob saved live's and equipment damage
we have all seen films online of transformer explosions just google for some

to protect yourself!! and home
you need to get a nice 6ft earth spike
and drive it into the soil outside your home
if you can sink one at each corner of the house
and earth bond clamp and cable all the pipes and earths together to these

then invest in a good surge protections block for sensitive computers
youll find these to be a good investment

i ALWAYS keep monitors on one protector and the computers on another
i ALWAYS use a ring main socket for connection and not a spurred socket from a ring !!!VERY IMPORTANT
and little known and understood by the public

most peoples home use ring mains for there sockets
this is a daisy chain of sockets round the home thats also connected back to the same point it starts at the fuse box
a spur is one from this type of chain thats not part of the chain and isnt returned

using spurs for computers is a BAD idea

clean monitors and greese there eht caps to stop any flashover due to dust and moisture

and replace the mains cables on older machines and unknown finds etc... before use
further cleaning the sockets pins with fine emery paper
to help with connections

always get machines properly electricaly tested before use by your own carefull inspection
or have some tech take a look and make sure its aok

an lcd multimeter set to AC range to measure the actual voltage of your mains supply is a good idea
periodicaly
this voltage level should be between 235 and 250 no higher or lower
or you can get damage
if its not right or your not happy in any way ask your supplier to check your household supply this is a free service and actualy they like to be asked
it keeps leekage of there juce low and maintains areas they dont check that often

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby atari_mark » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:57 am

I noticed in my area that whenever electrical maintenance is being done or there is an electrical fault within my area, my RCD trips out. It is not just my house, when my electric trips out, I can hear burglar alarms going off all down my estate. I figured it is the local substation that has something wrong with it. I even wrote to United Utilities to say I think there is something wrong but never got a reply.
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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby nativ » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:05 am

about local transformers ive seen
bloated and then explode three days later

What's all that about? Nothing to do with the Tv series I guess?

Thanks

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby Desty » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:39 am

atari_mark wrote:I noticed in my area that whenever electrical maintenance is being done or there is an electrical fault within my area, my RCD trips out. It is not just my house, when my electric trips out, I can hear burglar alarms going off all down my estate. I figured it is the local substation that has something wrong with it. I even wrote to United Utilities to say I think there is something wrong but never got a reply.

It was the same here last year - for while we started getting brief power failures on a weekly basis or worse... which was a bit of a pain when I left a long genetic programming run going for a few days - went back upstairs to check on it and the thing was at the Ubuntu login screen, all the results gone into thin air.
After it happened another few times I wrote some checkpointing code to save and restore state :roll:

At some point the power was down for about 20 hours straight - this is in the capital city of Ireland... :?:
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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby atari_mark » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:25 am

Desty wrote:It was the same here last year - for while we started getting brief power failures on a weekly basis or worse... which was a bit of a pain when I left a long genetic programming run going for a few days - went back upstairs to check on it and the thing was at the Ubuntu login screen, all the results gone into thin air.
After it happened another few times I wrote some checkpointing code to save and restore state :roll:

At some point the power was down for about 20 hours straight - this is in the capital city of Ireland... :?:


I have 2 UPS's to deal with the power outages (£58 each from ebuyer.co.uk). Last time the leccy went off, it happened 20 minutes after I left the house and I was away for 9 hours. My PCs shut themselves down automatically after 20 minutes of UPS power but unfortunately the freezer is not on my UPS :(
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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby alexh » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:19 am

There is no earth on all the downstairs sockets in my house :(

The back-boxes of the plug sockets are wood and they are all round (3) pin. (Nice of the former owners to leave me lots of compatible plugs when they left).

The fuse box is fun too.. A bit of wood attached to the wall, with 16 very very large screws in it in pairs... with fuse wire wrapped between each pair.

Obviously the house didn't have electricity when it was built. Works well enough though.

I had every intention of having the whole place re-wired when I bought the place in 2005 but after the initial shock of the quotes I just lived with it.

Bought fire-proof carpet, furniture and smoke detectors instead ;)

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby nativ » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:24 am

Bought fire-proof carpet, furniture and smoke detectors instead


I just imagining a bonfire in you're lounge? Is it really that fire proof? :lol:
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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby Hippy Dave » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:15 pm

From what I see here; these houses were built before transistors, or even light bulbs were invented.
Get a book on the Electrical Code for your country to see the minimum requirements for modern wiring.
I am as impressed with a home-made fuse box as the tin roof to tin roof wiring of homes in Haiti.

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby simbo » Mon May 04, 2009 2:16 am

wow i see so many people who have instantly found this topic usefull
its nice to see us all safe
and esp the equipment locked up behind some sort of brownout protection
its a pitty the over volts one is harder to check
i check my main voltage all the time using an analogue volt meter
you never know when it will strike
yon can use a 'crowbar' circuit {a zener and an scr } so if the voltage goes above say 400vdc
it shuts the supply off
a good earth is very important and so is not using spured sockets for computer supplies

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby alexh » Mon May 04, 2009 8:34 am

Hippy Dave wrote:Get a book on the Electrical Code for your country to see the minimum requirements for modern wiring.

AFAIK they do not apply for existing wiring, and as long as you declare everything when you sell you are under no obligation to fix it. It's been perfectly good for the last 51 years ;)

I also live less that 1 mile from (Didcot) powerstation and we have brown outs all the time, 7 this year, (how ironic!) and so far it has never broken anything. They happen at irregular times, but if I am in, I do go round and unplug / switch everything off. I dunno why. I think I was told to do it once by someone I trusted and the practice just seems normal now.

simbo wrote:i check my main voltage all the time using an analogue volt meter you never know when it will strike

Everyone needs to have a hobby.

simbo wrote:a good earth is very important and so is not using spured sockets for computer supplies

I'll take your word for it. The earth thing makes sense... not sure I understand the reason behind the spurred sockets. As you say, little known and even lesser understood. Maybe you could explain it more? How would a 'normal person' detect if a socket was spurred or not? Or do they just have to "know" their house electrics?

In 25 years of computer usage, (especially considering all the people I know who also use computers) I've only known one person ever suffer damaged equipment due to electrical problems. In that case his telephone pole was struck by lightening which went down the cable and in through his PCI 44Kbaud modem and fried his entire PC (not to mention his phones). So perhaps a surge protector on your phone line is equally as imporant??

BUT

During the same time period I've known 10's of people who damaged their electrical equipment due to water damage from spilt drinks & flower vases! Which kinda gives you a feeling how important (or irrelevant) power protection is in the grand scheme of things.

But for an investment of only a few extra ££'s you'd be mad not to get a surge protector next time you need to buy a multi-way extension.

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby simbo » Sun May 17, 2009 1:23 pm

its quite simply put alex just becouse you live near a power station doesnt mean

when the power station goes down you should have a brown out as you intimate by the tone of your texts

are you somehow disconnected from the national grid

or more over are you supplied direct from this one power station

this means a few things

1} your supply is unreliable as 7 brownouts in 1 year is totaly unacceptable
and you are in no way connected to any form of secured supply
2} if you think that there will be little damage from a brownout then sadly your an idiot as damage comes in many forms
softened silicon's delicate gates and crystal matris moving impurites right into its core for one
{over time the damage occurs components will start to leek like a damaged battle ship its not called a bridge rectifer for nothing} damage to other household goods from increased voltages &spikes like shorted turns in coils from flashover
3} im sad to see you think a spurred socket isnt important
and im glad to elaborate on it
....

1}its illegal to spur from a ring main unless there is a good reason as its dangerous and will kill you if there is an earth fault
mostly even if you have an earth leekage detector elcb
2} damage from brown outs is much greater on spurs becouse of current dipping and sinking that goes on in switching psu
as they are not double insulated and most stuff requires an earth to gain a proper ground image

im just surprised your able to post here as you should be dead

you must be one lucky guy
and i would also increase your insurance policy atleast
or have the balls to inform your provider that your house is unsafe and below standards
and threatens life around you
its like driving a rusty old morris minor one day youll remember my words as you turn purple and 'crash'
or someone crashes into you and your insurance then review your safety and refuses to pay out to you also

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby simbo » Sun May 17, 2009 1:39 pm

if you look to the standards the scottish drew up for electricity supply
and is now implimented in europe

youll see

1} you are expected to be supplied with clean filtered electricity free from spikes and errosive spuria
2} you are not entitled under law in europe to be supplied with a reliable earth
3} it is a legal requirement for a householder to tell there providers if there equipment does'nt 'cut the mustard'
4} you must by law inform the provider of insurance your supply and or household connections etc ...is sub standard


or in the event of a problem your not entitled to any form of recompense or repair of said
and are moreover liable for any damage your self to you and others {ie your house burns down so does the row of houses}

ie your not even insured by law if poo happens to you or your property
and any insurer is quite able to refuse any claim

if you have done all the nessisary by law safety stuff

if something goes wrong and your supply instead of 240v ac 50hz ends up at 2.5kv @something hz
and fries all your gear
the board will pay for it in entirety
its that simple

make it right or dont get any help if the supply goes wrong !!!

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby Desty » Sun May 17, 2009 2:48 pm

simbo wrote:2} if you think that there will be little damage from a brownout then sadly your an idiot as damage comes in many forms
softened silicon's delicate gates and crystal matris moving impurites right into its core for one

Most people have never heard of 'softened silicon gates' and whatever else you're talking about. I don't think it's fair to call anyone who doesn't know exactly what you know (or differs on opinion) an idiot.

simbo wrote:im just surprised your able to post here as you should be dead

That's a bit uncalled for as well tbh. :roll:
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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby alexh » Sun May 17, 2009 6:02 pm

simbo wrote:if you think that there will be little damage from a brownout then sadly your an idiot

I have empirical proof to the contrary.

By "silicon's delicate gates" do you really mean electromigration?? Cos if you did, it is an interesting subject that I know FAR too much about being a chip designer.

simbo wrote:1}its illegal to spur from a ring main

Crap, someone call the police, illegal spur in my living room ;)

Seriously though, I would have liked to understand the reasons behind the risks you attach, I am pretty sure you are correct and there is some associated danger but unfortunately your reply just reads like jibbering nonsense (not your fault, just the way you write your posts, or the way I read them) and failed to fully understand.

I did try to find out if there was any way to detect if a socket is a SPUR if you do not know the wiring diagram of your house. Didnt come up with anything. I assume because it is too simple a question. I imagine you take the front off the socket and if there is only one set of wires then it is a spur?

But I did recently have a capacitor fail in my ATX PSU which I am attributing to a brown-out (cos it was just afterwards). Which was an excuse to get a surge protector.

simbo wrote:its like driving a rusty old morris minor one day you'll remember my words as you turn purple and 'crash'
or someone crashes into you and your insurance then review your safety and refuses to pay out to you also

A) If someone crashes into you, YOUR insurance doesn't pay out.
B) Cars have MOT's houses don't so it is a poor analogy!

simbo wrote:3} it is a legal requirement for a householder to tell there providers if there equipment does'nt 'cut the mustard'

But who defines does'nt 'cut the mustard. An RCD is not a requirement. Earth on all sockets and lighting is not a requirement. I am pretty sure that the electrics in my house would not invalidate my insurance, given the terms. But it is a good point, so I've asked my sister, who is a lawyer, to read the small print. We'll see.

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby Hippy Dave » Sun May 17, 2009 7:50 pm

But I did recently have a capacitor fail in my ATX PSU which I am attributing to a brown-out (cos it was just afterwards).


Brown-outs, not the surges, are what usually cause the failures. Electric motors draw more current during brownouts because the back-emf is lower. Switching power supplies draw more current to maintain the same power; causing higher ripple on capacitors and transistors.

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby alexh » Tue May 19, 2009 12:25 pm

My PSU is/was a universal PSU rated between 110-240 so I didnt think it would have been affected.

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTECTION

Postby simbo » Mon May 25, 2009 5:26 pm

Desty wrote:
simbo wrote:2} if you think that there will be little damage from a brownout then sadly your an idiot as damage comes in many forms
softened silicon's delicate gates and crystal matris moving impurites right into its core for one

Most people have never heard of 'softened silicon gates' and whatever else you're talking about. I don't think it's fair to call anyone who doesn't know exactly what you know (or differs on opinion) an idiot.

simbo wrote:im just surprised your able to post here as you should be dead

That's a bit uncalled for as well tbh. :roll:



dead im not AND i thank you to show a little indepth nonillicent respect for age for once


im just telling it how it is ## ~ ~ ++ == !


if people refuse to accept criticism how near or how far

im sorry im just a gin....
i will with respect compound all posts to one usefull post -- == ++ +! the non intuitive posts made
and make a locked topic on electrical safety

its that simple as a guide i personaly dont require insults as i do the best i can for myself
and more over this place i dont need to share this info ffs !!!
arguing the finer points of electrical safety around the home is an open ended debate between the obvious idiots
i leave it to them and you ....!

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby simbo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:15 pm

i want to point out that AC in any form or waveform
will map to a set of 'nodes' and 'antinodes' within circuits
much like RF does
as high tension AC or even DC thats gated will do

this is what fries the inside of the ic's due to static or HT or EHT discharge to the uniform nature of these retros 'screened' machines

ffs study physic's....

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby spiny » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:21 am

simbo wrote:
Desty wrote:
simbo wrote:2} if you think that there will be little damage from a brownout then sadly your an idiot as damage comes in many forms
softened silicon's delicate gates and crystal matris moving impurites right into its core for one

Most people have never heard of 'softened silicon gates' and whatever else you're talking about. I don't think it's fair to call anyone who doesn't know exactly what you know (or differs on opinion) an idiot.

simbo wrote:im just surprised your able to post here as you should be dead

That's a bit uncalled for as well tbh. :roll:



dead im not AND i thank you to show a little indepth nonillicent respect for age for once


im just telling it how it is ## ~ ~ ++ == !


if people refuse to accept criticism how near or how far

im sorry im just a gin....
i will with respect compound all posts to one usefull post -- == ++ +! the non intuitive posts made
and make a locked topic on electrical safety

its that simple as a guide i personaly dont require insults as i do the best i can for myself
and more over this place i dont need to share this info ffs !!!
arguing the finer points of electrical safety around the home is an open ended debate between the obvious idiots
i leave it to them and you ....!


this post makes no sense whatsoever.

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby spiny » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:24 am

simbo wrote:its like driving a rusty old morris minor one day youll remember my words as you turn purple and 'crash'
or someone crashes into you and your insurance then review your safety and refuses to pay out to you also


that ^ is a poor analagy, cars need MOT to be on the road - if your car has an MOT, then it's considered safe to drive on the road, the insurance company cannot arbitarily decide that because it's 'old' it is unsafe. I have a 1970 mg and a 1978 vw van, both are perfectly safe to drive.

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby wongck » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:20 am

spiny wrote:that ^ is a poor analagy, cars need MOT to be on the road - if your car has an MOT, then it's considered safe to drive on the road, the insurance company cannot arbitarily decide that because it's 'old' it is unsafe. I have a 1970 mg and a 1978 vw van, both are perfectly safe to drive.


:lol: think about it, it's not the vehicle that causes the crash....
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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby spiny » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:25 am

wongck wrote:
spiny wrote:that ^ is a poor analagy, cars need MOT to be on the road - if your car has an MOT, then it's considered safe to drive on the road, the insurance company cannot arbitarily decide that because it's 'old' it is unsafe. I have a 1970 mg and a 1978 vw van, both are perfectly safe to drive.


:lol: think about it, it's not the vehicle that causes the crash....



I know, my vehicles are roadworthy.

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby simbo » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:05 am

road worthy hahahahahahahahaah :lol:


rusty bits of rotted subframe junk
like most of the power grid for sure...!

it people 'collecting' old cars kill the most on the road now

the worst accidents are caused by people with 'road worthy ' cars
hence the many scrapage schemes

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Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTEC

Postby RetroGamerUK » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:58 pm

simbo wrote:1}its illegal to spur from a ring main unless there is a good reason as its dangerous and will kill you if there is an earth fault
mostly even if you have an earth leekage detector elcb

Incorrect on all three counts, it is not illegal to install a spur, and no special reasons are required, and an earth fault to a spur or appliance connected to it would not present any more or less danger than if it occurred on a ring circuit or indeed on an appliance connected to it.
And an E.L.C.B. (now known as an R.C.D.) would provide exactly the same level of protection to to the spur as to any other part of the circuit.

I couldn't find any online regulations to back up my claims as these guides are not freely available online, I did however find a website which gives instructions as to how ring mains and spurs are wired, it's basic stuff really, if it was illegal as you say Simbo then this website I've linked here is probable run by morons:
http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/electrics/power-circuits-1.html

Of course I could be wrong in that there may be European laws that I'm unaware of, if you have proof of these laws Simbo I would be interested to see it.

Cheers.

simbo

Re: CHECKING HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICAL EARTH AND EQUIPMENT PROTE

Postby simbo » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:27 pm

RetroGamerUK wrote:
simbo wrote:1}its illegal to spur from a ring main unless there is a good reason as its dangerous and will kill you if there is an earth fault
mostly even if you have an earth leekage detector elcb

Incorrect on all three counts, it is not illegal to install a spur, and no special reasons are required, and an earth fault to a spur or appliance connected to it would not present any more or less danger than if it occurred on a ring circuit or indeed on an appliance connected to it.
And an E.L.C.B. (now known as an R.C.D.) would provide exactly the same level of protection to to the spur as to any other part of the circuit.

I couldn't find any online regulations to back up my claims as these guides are not freely available online, I did however find a website which gives instructions as to how ring mains and spurs are wired, it's basic stuff really, if it was illegal as you say Simbo then this website I've linked here is probable run by morons:
http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/electrics/power-circuits-1.html

Of course I could be wrong in that there may be European laws that I'm unaware of, if you have proof of these laws Simbo I would be interested to see it.

Cheers.




study the new regulations based on ring circuit simulation
and its effectors like added spur and then a cable with a filter in it
when a spur is used and say a main's 4 or 8 way cable from a spur
in a ring main you have double to earth bonding
and a spur taken from this halfs to earth bond
as european legislation tightens and moreover as simulation
has shown how the earth image will change
especialy as the earth image moves by terms of resistance from
the ring loop
your moving around an image around switched mode psu and this rots your gear
and also the LDT {local distribution transformer}

its earth rots becouse of the earth phase inversion caused by CT LC filters in these adapters
and multiway flex used to supply gear
we all have one

it is a fact of natural progression in realisation of errors {debug}

i feel more and more that consumer panels should incorperate LC ring filters
to protect more and more digital smp supplied equiptment

so supplying stuff from a spur is a very bad idea

and isnt allowed under nic rewiring regulations

so as this is LAW now

it should be concidered as concurrent in logic

so...

there is money too be made by fitting filters for each ring main supplying switched mode psu
or any non inductive load

personaly i would prefer at this stage all new wires
to supply
240V ac
110V ac
and LT rails of
50V ac
9V ac * 1.4148 {dc at wall output} for phones etc
all filtered at the main loop
and no spurs from it
that weaken the earth bond


earth is your best friend

its worth adding that ELCB units have been banned as not safe if used from a spur
so we have RCD only now


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