Border removal , left and right ?

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Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:12 pm

There are STOS extensions to remove the top and bottom borders, but has anyone seen a extension to remove the left and right borders ? Or know of any ASM code which can be called to remove them ? I'm sure I have seen this done in STOS years ago somewhere..
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby EstTeeEfEm » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:34 pm

IcTari issue 5 includes some source for border removal that APPEARS to allow side border removal... its a called PRG though so it depends how you feel?

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:38 pm

EstTeeEfEm wrote:IcTari issue 5 includes some source for border removal that APPEARS to allow side border removal... its a called PRG though so it depends how you feel?


PRG's can be called in STOS.. so might be worth a look into...
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby EstTeeEfEm » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:39 pm

lol, forgot to attach ?!

ictari 1_5.zip
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:44 pm

Which folder are you looking in for it ?
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby EstTeeEfEm » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:47 pm

Issue 5 - folder STOS .. and its RASTERS

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:54 pm

EstTeeEfEm wrote:Issue 5 - folder STOS .. and its RASTERS


I saw that one, though while rasters is possible, its not giving full control over the areas.

I've had the bottom border removed for stuff in the past, so might just go down that direction to get some extra pixels..

The top border seems to depending on MMU version, but seems there might be other issues aswell, not really sure about all that stuff.

Really I wanted to display a image in the left and right borders.. might not be really possible. Though bottom border removal is at least something..
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:37 pm

I have code for displaying 416 px width. Height up to 273 px - with some correction not MMU based but exact CPU clock based - because that may causing shift by 1 line and mess up colors. Displaying of hi-color pics, mostly intended for STE.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:44 pm

AtariZoll wrote:I have code for displaying 416 px width. Height up to 273 px - with some correction not MMU based but exact CPU clock based - because that may causing shift by 1 line and mess up colors. Displaying of hi-color pics, mostly intended for STE.


Sounds interesting, I can call assembly code from STOS, how does your code deal with the screen data, just send screen address to code and assume a ram area the right size for the screen ?

I guess if you could add some patten as a test for your code, I can call that from STOS and make sure I can call your code correctly first ?
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:44 pm

Yes, you can call that code from STOS. Depending on color count wanted you need to reserve some RAM of course. And code self is some 20 KB if I remember correct.
And of course, you need proper bitmap data - if want only 16 colors, still need some SW to convert normal formats to it. For hi-color, I used dml's Photochrome - later versions allow settings of non standard res.
So, let me know what format you want. 16 colors will take 208 x line count bytes. Hi color about 60% more.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:59 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Yes, you can call that code from STOS. Depending on color count wanted you need to reserve some RAM of course. And code self is some 20 KB if I remember correct.
And of course, you need proper bitmap data - if want only 16 colors, still need some SW to convert normal formats to it. For hi-color, I used dml's Photochrome - later versions allow settings of non standard res.
So, let me know what format you want. 16 colors will take 208 x line count bytes. Hi color about 60% more.


I just want to extend the low resolution with intention of a simple game I have in mind for STOS. So 16 colours is all thats needed. Not sure exactly how to create images that size yet :) Probably do separate images for various places on the screen or something.
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:05 pm

I guess that you are aware that horizontal overscan will occupy CPU 100%, so can display static pictures only, and there will be problems with reading mouse or joystick - while keyboard should be good readable.
You can for instance do 2 pics in Degas or some other editor, with total width of 416, then will do some simple SW to compose one proper file from 2 sources. But probably better is to do on PC, save as unpacked BMP in 16 colors, then will do converting SW for Atari screen format.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:12 pm

AtariZoll wrote:I guess that you are aware that horizontal overscan will occupy CPU 100%, so can display static pictures only, and there will be problems with reading mouse or joystick - while keyboard should be good readable.
You can for instance do 2 pics in Degas or some other editor, with total width of 416, then will do some simple SW to compose one proper file from 2 sources. But probably better is to do on PC, save as unpacked BMP in 16 colors, then will do converting SW for Atari screen format.


I know it uses a lot of CPU time, but wasn't aware it would use all for horizontal :( I thought it would use less CPU time than removing the bottom border for example. So maybe this is not good idea then :roll:

There are functions to remove bottom and top border, I used bottom removal before, but I don't know how much CPU time bottom border removal uses, also top and bottom ?
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:07 pm

Bottom and top removal can be solved with Timers, so CPU usage may be pretty low - couple % . But in case of horizontal overscan you must perform 50/60Hz switch in exact moment of lines, and that is possible only with code of exact cycle count . There are many games with vertical overscan, but I know only one with hor. : Overscan Invaders - that has very special code, and we know that that game is really not demanding.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:21 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Bottom and top removal can be solved with Timers, so CPU usage may be pretty low - couple % . But in case of horizontal overscan you must perform 50/60Hz switch in exact moment of lines, and that is possible only with code of exact cycle count . There are many games with vertical overscan, but I know only one with hor. : Overscan Invaders - that has very special code, and we know that that game is really not demanding.


Thanks for reply, So I better stay with top and bottom removal else I won't have any CPU time :)
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby MiggyMog » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:43 pm

I think there was a fullscreen rout for stos on the missing link or misty disk for registration version. But that only had time for keypress check iirc. If you are targeting STE you could use 16 pixel trick, I believe this is only set once per frame and just means you can't use h scroll? If pera is willing to write a rout that can do partial screen that may be nice compromise. E.g. Height. Of a scroller with offset? For y lines?
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:45 pm

MiggyMog wrote:I think there was a fullscreen rout for stos on the missing link or misty disk for registration version. But that only had time for keypress check iirc. If you are targeting STE you could use 16 pixel trick, I believe this is only set once per frame and just means you can't use h scroll? If pera is willing to write a rout that can do partial screen that may be nice compromise. E.g. Height. Of a scroller with offset? For y lines?


Never gave a thought to smaller border removals. No clue if thats possible. Though by the sounds of it, if horizontal is going to eat up a lot of CPU time, then even a small area could soak up a lot of time also.

I don't know if I will use STFM or STE here, though it depends how my game engine pans out in the end. I'm thinking of use using the blitter for all graphics, should be compatible with the falcon then at least. STFM's need a blitter, early days yet. Just need to make sure im not crippling the CPU time with border removals. Might only need bottom removal, used that before without to much trouble. Need to more tests. Though with top and bottom removal, while itself might not take up much CPU time, its a lot more screen area to update..
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:16 am

Here I must say that "border removal" is not good term. It is misleading. You can not remove border(s) completely, only make them smaller - or better said making bitmap part bigger. Whole thing is based on switching Vfreq register in very exact moments - so 50/60 Hz switches. That will confuse shifter in some way, so it will start to draw bitmap on screen. For increasing bitmap area to top you need to do that switch at beginning of some normally border line - I don't remember what minimal line # is that exactly. somewhere about 20 - then shifter will start to draw. Hard part is to solve start in very exact moment - best is to use some MFP timer help for that. Similar is with lower part of screen. For details best look following article:
http://alive.atari.org/alive9/ovrscn1.php
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby troed » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:56 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Whole thing is based on switching Vfreq register in very exact moments - so 50/60 Hz switches. That will confuse shifter in some way, so it will start to draw bitmap on screen. For increasing bitmap area to top you need to do that switch at beginning of some normally border line - I don't remember what minimal line # is that exactly. somewhere about 20 - then shifter will start to draw. Hard part is to solve start in very exact moment - best is to use some MFP timer help for that. Similar is with lower part of screen. For details best look following article:
http://alive.atari.org/alive9/ovrscn1.php


(For correctness)

It's the GLUE that decides when to start/stop lines at different positions on screen, it tells the MMU to fetch data which in turns makes the Shifter have something to display.

To start the screen earlier ("open top border") you can manipulate the GLUE by going into either high resolution or 60Hz at a specific point (cycle 502** on line 34). If you then want to start the lines themselves earlier ("open left border") you switch to high resolution at a specific cycle each line (cycle 4 on ST, 0 on STE). To end the lines later ("open right border") you fool the GLUE by going into 60Hz at the specific cycle where it checks for 50Hz line end (cycle 376) - on each line. And finally, at line 247/263* cycle 502, you go to 60Hz when the GLUE checks if it's time to end a regular 50Hz screen.

Detailed horisontal state machines here, I have the vertical as well (as indicated above) - I just haven't had the time to enter it yet.

http://www.atari-wiki.com/?title=ST_STE_Scanlines

Opening top and lower borders with timers can be done quite easily and don't consume much CPU time, which MFP timers just as AtariZoll writes. If you also want left/right _and_ actually do something more than just showing a static image I suggest moving on from STOS to assembler ;) All your code needs to be "in sync", cycle counting the instructions***.

/Troed

*) Some very early STs have a "short" top border, the 50Hz screen end check on those is at line 247. On all others it's 263.
**) Wakestate dependent. Cycle 502 in WS1/WS3, 504 in WS2/WS4
***) To be fair, if you watch my STNICCC talk on "modern" fullscreen coding you might get the idea that the old interrupt driven fullscreen idea by Ziggy Stardust can be improved upon ...

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby bodkinz » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:32 am

Just noticed that Ictari04.zip is possibly corrupted... any chance of a working copy?

Thanks in advance
someone post something, i'm bored :)

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:11 am

bodkinz wrote:Just noticed that Ictari04.zip is possibly corrupted... any chance of a working copy?

Thanks in advance


From where ?

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby EstTeeEfEm » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:18 pm

Probably a bit laet in the day..
The CONTROL EXTENSION has border removal for top/bottom on an STFM.. dont know if thats helpful?

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby exxos » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:22 pm

EstTeeEfEm wrote:Probably a bit laet in the day..
The CONTROL EXTENSION has border removal for top/bottom on an STFM.. dont know if thats helpful?


Thats the one I used before :) I just thought removing the left and right borders would be easy, but seems not really a good option in this case. Top and bottom removal is ok. No time to work on this right now, so probably look into it again some other time :)
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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby bodkinz » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:30 pm

exxos
From where ?


A post in this thread by EstTeeEfEm from 14th March

The file seems to be corrupt in the attachment
someone post something, i'm bored :)

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Re: Border removal , left and right ?

Postby EstTeeEfEm » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:19 pm

Yeah, i can't exactly remember where i got it from ... ?! There are a few corrupt files in my archive of IcTari ..
Issue 5 though, seems fine, its just it came as a ZIP in fives, i.e 15- 6-10


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