pascal ascii characters

C and PASCAL (or any other high-level languages) in here please

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Nyh
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Postby Nyh » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:06 am

lp wrote:With some bits of assembler interfaced into GFA, most problems can be solved. This is the approach I use. My GFA editor is written in GFA with 15 or so assembler routines added where I need maximum speed.

PureC could be the answer, it works even on my Hades.

I agree. Almost every thing can be solved using Gfa. And personally I think you better first learn assembly programming before you start with C because then the whole concept of pointers is a lot easier.

Hans Wessels

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Postby lp » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:38 am

Nyh wrote:Gfa is primary a Basic dialect. It is not as clean as Pascal. You can write clean and structured programs in Gfa Basic but it is too easy to make a big mess of your programs.

I think you should only use Pascal for learning how to program in a programming course at a pretty high level. I think Charles is still lacking fundamental knowledge about programming. He is very enthousiast but his questions makes clear to me there are big fundamental gaps in his knowledge. Switching programming languages won't help a lot and may even confuse him more.

Maybe some assembly programming will help him to understand how the 68000 shuffles bits, bytes, words and longs around to make things happen.

Hans Wessels


All good points. The thing I would also suggest to Charles would be to sit down with the GFA manual and try every command until it's fully understood. One key to victory is knowing the language like the back of your hand. This way when a problem presents itself, the commands to accomplish it come to mind more quickly.

You are right, one can make messy programs in GFA. One rule I have is to never use GOTO, period. I always hated trying to follow other peoples code when they use GOTO, so I never use it myself.

Also my HYP about GFA contains well over 10 years of knowledge, each command is listed and all the ones that should be avoided are noted and why. With suggestions for work a rounds and so on. I can't take full credit for the HYP, others have submitted bug reports over the years, etc. It's a lot easier now to write cleaner GFA applications than it was a long time ago. ;)

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Postby Desty » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:33 pm

Just to diverge even more, I'm learning the Eiffel programming language at the moment, and it seems quite simple in syntax, as well as pure-OO and statically typed. I'm liking it so far; much cleaner than C++ since it's garbage collected, and much higher level than C since it's totally object oriented - everything is a class. It's almost on a par with C++ performance-wise, too.
SmartEiffel is free and compiles to C, which you can then compile with whatever standard C compiler you use - I've got it building native Linux 32-bit executables as well as Atari TOS executables from the same source code, thanks to gcc's cross-compiling setup. Although the ST executables are coming out like 90k or bigger in size, probably due somewhat to all the library calls that get linked in.
Maybe worth a look, although setting up the compiler is hard ;)

If you're interested in relative language runtime/memory efficiency tests, have a look here btw.
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coucou

Postby gloky » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:38 pm

and don't forget, card is better than poke ;)
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Postby gloky » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:14 pm

if youneed help in pascal i can learning you because i have practice with tmt pascal on pc
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Postby Lautreamont » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:38 pm

Your compiler might have restrictions on the size of the DATA (and TEXT) segments (remember the msdos "tiny" memory model).
But why would it on Atari ?

Maybe you could try to dynamically allocate your data, the compiler couldn't complain at compilation time,
it would give you a better grasp on what happens and you would have the privilege to crash your program yourself
if you can't get the memory amount that you want.

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i got what i need (pretentceous idoit)

Postby charles » Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:39 pm

well still scufflingh to gain solid programming ground but always a worth while battle.

yes i undestand all of the gfa command summary , its the xbios , bios calls that draw me back ,
to pin point an exact area of limitation ...
its not the syntax or forming the call ,but rather implementing a
code to pre pare for the bios, xbios , aes or vdi ...
::: holding me back ...the draw back is switching and swapping of variable types or addrress to integer relation ship .....i find pascal better for this type of thing compared to gfa

example :

ptsin array
the address and length of ptsin array are much easier to visualize within pascal than to transfer in gfa..

commands are contained in pascal libraries and have
built in summaries which more or less carry the thought process through.


but gfa does have an open format , no real procedures before program structure, and data lines which are very easy to adapt information from.
all easy once get foot through door.

i like both and the test of my knowledge is going to be whether i can transfer my old gfa programs to a new language...pascal..

so any body wishing to help i can sure use some reference, please make presence known, thanks glokey,lonny ,deaghnoe,,the pressure is on!!!
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Re: i got what i need (pretentceous idoit)

Postby lp » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:17 am

charles wrote:::: holding me back ...the draw back is switching and swapping of variable types or addrress to integer relation ship .....i find pascal better for this type of thing compared to gfa

example :

ptsin array
the address and length of ptsin array are much easier to visualize within pascal than to transfer in gfa..

commands are contained in pascal libraries and have
built in summaries which more or less carry the thought process through.


It's very simple in GFA, an address/pointer is ALWAYS a 4 byte long "%".
Let me repeat, never, ever use a word to store and address or pointer.
I do not know of any OS call the requires bytes or floats, so you only need to pass words& and longs%. And the manual clearly shows the setup for all OS calls, assuming you are using v3.6 which has nearly all OS calls built in. As for ptsin and intin arrays, use the indexed variant PTSIN(0)=x, PTSIN(1)=x, and don't use WORD{PTSIN}=x, WORD{PTSIN+2}=x , not only is the indexed version easier, it arranges the data into words for you, and there is no math involved.

Have you solved the string limitation problem yet with Pascal? That's going to bite you in the ass all the time, trust me.

And lastly I have to agree with the opinions of some others. Pascal can be a great teaching tool, but it's not suited for program development on the ST. Not when other languages are more up to date, and/or more powerful/flexible, as is the case with "C".

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Re: pascal

Postby gloky » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:09 am

charles wrote:well i would but that would mean i have to do alot of extra re writing of this old code i am porting over to pascal from gfa basic.

infact i don't think that will work due to complications of declaring all variables but it might work basically i i use one string within a if statemnet that decides its out come.
if x=factor
a$="my string"
elseifx =factor1
a$="my variation of string"
elseuif=factor2
a$="my var#2"
elseif factor3
a$="myvar#3"
endif
then i move this string to midiws ()

so afew....or alot of the conditions within the if/then loop, once met,
also decide the contents of the string ..which is more than one character
so as you can see a string is made for each of the conditions ,depending on which factor has been indicated...its just darn simplistic to have a string prepared a$=" x x x x" then to have say:
string[0]:=144;
string[1]:=65;
string[2]:=40;
but i will not argue , if this is what i must do , i will do.
although your example lonny has a type difference conflict.
string is characters.......and you.=65 is decimal/variable/integer.

charles
i guess i could bmove the contents of the address from lpeek address
if i use integer array but not streessing to hard right now.




String is in memory is like this: string[0] = length of the string
if it's byte you canno't get more than 255 char on a pascal string

even if it's byte in memory the type of string array is char
ord('A') give 65
chr(65) give a char A

program toto;
uses crt; // standard library (cathode ray tube ????)
var phrase:String;
x:integer;
// here is a space to place procedure and function
BEGIN

if (x = something) then begin;
phrase:='something';
end else if (x = something else) then begin;
phrase='wellcome home';
end else begin;
phrase:='don''t understand ;) ';
end;



END. { the dot are important it's the end of the code}

the = is similar to == in c langage
:= is = in c langage or basic

mem[adress]:=35; is like poke adress,35
x:=mem[adress];
x equal 35

8O
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:02 pm

i really hope there is someone else out there who will use this , as insugnificant as this is
it does straighten out the learning curve ,,,i had troubles going from gfa to pascal because of the key command macros conflict and user settings and , then got stuck on hspascal,with no allocatable memory,,but i think i've hit a sweet spot so i will illustrate my "small" findings.

use the provide code to have pure pascal ,or maybe any other pascal print the ascii to screen.
i know it seems simple , but once a person practices it in one languge , then steps up to the next language,,a re procedure-al tutorial is needed...for all commands,actions and functions.

i needed to be "RE-FORMATTED" for this pure pascal!!!!!!!

its easy to do within gfa ,
just hold alt key down and write in the decimal value for whichever ascii char acter you need , then you 're enabled to form strings of these non alphabitacal symbols.....
but in pascal
we are forced to use # sign then the decimal representation,,,
well its got its good side and its bad side....
i am eagerilly awaiting the feedback..or critisisims..or comments ..or hate ..or poverty strucken mobs to shroud me with fearfull remarks which normally follow my posts...

okay heres the answer i initially sought:
{*******************************************************}
{Alt string forming method w/ character or numerals }
{*******************************************************}
{different method other than chr()+chr()+chr()+chr() }
{# = ' #target character number ' is same as }
{ chr(target character number) but with two less }
{ brackets and two less command letters....ha hahahaha }
{lol ! lets hope we know what we're saying! see example }
{*******************************************************}

var
a:string;
begin
a:=#$80;
writeln('Prints Hex as ascii : ',a);
a:=#123;
Writeln('Prints Non-Alphabetic Ascii : ', a );
end.

{*********************end of file**********************}
charles
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:16 pm

That's very simplistic indeed.

It's further complicated by the fact that if you want a non-printable character like NULL in a string, the ALT+key business is not to helpful. So in GFA it's as simple as:
my_string$+chr$(0) !adds NULL to the string

Every language I have tried has an equivalent command for chr$()/asc(), even php if one considers php a programming language. It's a matter of RTFM. :coffe:

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:48 pm

well its an entire up hill battle ,
complicated is the correct term lonny ,
a german hlp file ,
a discontinued computer ,
and as someone else mentioned , a unpopoular language.

me personally , i have discovered what i originally asked, but if all users need full
utilization to this small aspect we are going to ,,,..er uhm .. ' I AM GOING'!!
to start plagueing ash developers......
translate my hlp files into english ,,,,
and some how re introduce pascal among the
seldom few of us who still believe and use atari sts.

i really do not have any interest at the moment to print the first 32 ascii characters to screen but if someone else does please let me know so we can work together on this....breif pause and i will return,,,i am goig to test the first 32 characters by v_gtext ..ing them to moniter console, may work.

charles
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:07 pm

try this one , it should assit any body who trys the atari programming in the avenue
of this thread.
it works lonny prints all characters to screen..
;;;;;my favorite sayin....."GOOD-BYE WORLD....HELLO COMPUTER!"

well it does not print that but here is whats been done.

{prints any of the first non printable 32 characters to screen}
uses gem;
var
a:string;
whandle:integer;
begin
whandle:=1;{identification for window handle}
a:='The '#14#15' Forum '#189;
v_gtext(whandle,199,99,a);
end.

once again pascal is great ...

charles
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:40 pm

TEXT 199,99,"The "+CHR$(14)+CHR$(15)+" Forum "+CHR$(189) !one-liner in gfa :mrgreen:

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:58 pm

come on lonny we were not comparing things here , get with it! you should join up with simon sunny boy and write tutorials , geeez!!! pascal pascal pascal...yes
you could make it as
" padded "
or
" un padded "
as you wish.

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:51 pm

Sorry, but your discovery is so insanely simple I had to post the GFA equivalent. Especially since you chose to switch to pascal after stating GFA was to complex for you.

simonsunnyboy is doing quite ok on his own. I do make tutorials and even code snippets for GFA, which are available for download on my site. http://www.bright.net/~gfabasic/html/gfa_faq.htm

Perhaps you should setup a pascal website and write pascal tutorials. Or hand translate all the German pascal documentation and put them on a site for all to benefit.

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:24 am

yes , this is a greaT web site and any tidbit of info does really help.
you do have a point and i shouldn't smuther the flames you kindle for gfa ...
but you must admit ,
thats frikin hilarious....
just about every time i say something about pascal ,
you say something about gfa...
so like i haven't checked other posts but if someone was talking about a game or something , would you be prone to saying this could have been written in gfa or
just like...//////
ha ha ha just kidding wit you lonny , i know you have an obsession with gfa...

and its just about the same for me,but i try to learn and seem to do it at my own pace.

i hopefuly will have a web site soon but all i mainily do is midi , pascal/gfa/omikron...
for the atari ,,,and if i do like you said , translate the german to english for pure pascal....
it will go on there too ,,,if anybody reads this deep into the post , i will assist with pascal any way i possablly can!!!!
i am learning a little about german allready..its got male and female properties for different words,but its all like back wards and crazy , so i doubt it will
be a serious priority right yet. i may just make like yahoo-atari-pascal-group instead.

my problem was insanilly simple but nobody around here knew of it ??
thats where i get bent out of shape, i know "lets not sweat the small stuff right"?

charles
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:19 am

It's more than an obsession. It's my belief that BASIC needs to maintained for this platform. It's great for prototyping ideas or building small to medium size applications fast. No one else was stepping up to the plate to do it, so I took up the cause. I tried a lot of the others and I came to the conclusion that GFA is the easiest to use over-all. It has a nice balance of ease of use and performance.

The comparison started with you. You stated pascal was faster than GFA. I'm still waiting for the proof on this. Or do you wish to retract this statement, because you can't prove it?

Anyway is it a bad thing that I can read Pascal and rewrite into GFA? Is it a bad thing if others learn from it?

Or is it that I made you look silly?

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:29 am

of course you can make me look silly lonny , you been doing this type of computation for a very long time.
on a personal level i really like pascal more than i like gfa,
its a good programming area to learn and practise atari programming.
it too can execute c code and asmembler
just like gfa.
which makes me ask??? can' c 'or 'asm' execute basic code?

i too have a room full of gfa books,,minus the one i sent you 'gfa for windows'
you use it very much? for me it was too much when i first aquired it ..still is.......

but i do appreciate the work thats been done for gfa systems.. its good the atari platform does not change so we work with very stable units.....
between omikron , gfa basic and pascal , i have had the most success at programming ,
can not stand the (asm,devpac) interface,,,,,
and
( c ) is still a little bit extreme and [}}{}]{}}{}{}]][}}[ crossed out for me!!!....
can't follow code to write from examples!!!!!!!!

so thats it ,
all said and done ...
i'm gonna use pascal for a while , maybe as long as i did gfa
which was five years ...and we'll see where i end up from there.
is still a hobby for myself,

hopefully i can rely on you bunch for some help from time to time
charles
and don't really know about faster any more...since you re-wrote the gfa compiller,

i have had more success and better results with pascal ,
gfa is still very good,, if not the best basic an individual could aquire for the atari 1040's ,,but like that old wise tail goes..

you can leed a horse to water ,but you sure can't make him piss...
or was it
a horse lead to water sure likes to drink...
nonono ..........
a horse with water will certasinlly piss after drinking,if you can make him drink
yep
the water likes the horse as much as the brown fox jumps quickily , hello world!!!
good bye topic...
charles
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:51 am

which makes me ask??? can' c 'or 'asm' execute basic code?

It depends on the BASIC, if it's compiled and if it creates standard object files. If so, the answer could be yes.

minus the one i sent you 'gfa for windows' you use it very much?

No, the windows version of GFA is loaded with many more bugs, some very serious ones as they had the brilliant idea of incorporating the compiler into the editor. Sounds good on the surface, but if the compiler crashes, guess what, you lose your code!

and don't really know about faster any more...since you re-wrote the gfa compiller

I did not rewrite the compiler, it was disassembled and only bugs were repaired. I made no speed enhancements whatsoever. But you seem unwilling to provide an example. In the future, please refrain from making such statements if you refuse to back them up. I can only assume at this point it was your programming skill that made it slow.

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:58 am

lonny do you remember the text size thing???
,,vdi or gfa command ?
conflict where passing one command feels suitable and is desired but
where only gfa equivelent passes four commands ?

or

the conflict between feeding arrays looped data , to pass to the vdi
elements of gfa intin ptsin ,global......
compared to just pointing to addresses in other languages
and how
just like today's senerio i was directed towards the gfa equivelents ,
while we passed up on exposing the secondary measures
,,

kinda creates the element of weakness not knowing which command is most suitable because we always look for the simplest method. it may seem appropriate but is just only proving functional.
arewe obsuring the fact the of the differences are because our methods of programmiing
may be forming a misleading trend.

if we really wanted the fastest programs i supose the users (thats us) should implement
asmembler and c with our languages ,we allready can or have but i guess establishing
noteable differences by isolating certain elements is unimportant at this time in atari comouter histry too so....... i still have unanswered questions..

i had more typed but i kinda pissed because i just wrote for two hours and when tryed to post
i got logged out, and we all know what happens then...no post .


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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:45 am

lonny do you remember the text size thing???
,,vdi or gfa command ?
conflict where passing one command feels suitable and is desired but
where only gfa equivalent passes four commands ?


If you are referring to the DEFTEXT command, yes it has 4 parameters, but if you read the manual you can exclude the ones you wish to not alter. Example:
DEFTEXT ,,,13 !adjust only the text size

the conflict between feeding arrays looped data , to pass to the vdi
elements of gfa intin ptsin ,global......


You never provided an example, or revealed the VDI or AES calls in question for that matter. Again if you read the manual, virtually every AES and VDI call is implemented as single line commands. Why are you mucking about with these system arrays PTSIN, INTIN, etc. when you don't need to? A good example is the v_gtext() which is implemented in GFA as the "TEXT" command.

The rest of the post makes little if any sense I have to say. hmm

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby charles » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:10 pm

well i've learned how to program in gfa ,and have moved on to pascal ..
,maybe read it again lonny if you don't understand.

i don't know if any of this is even worth mentioning , but for some ..(non specific at this time) reason..i am always being repetivilly told to use the single line commands of gfa , and forget about the vdi the tos,and the aes .....

in contrast i've enjoyed learning to program
the aes tos and gem without these simple one line codes,
and now because of this i find its very easy to transport old gfa code
to any of most programming language editor/compiller .

thats just one good point.

the next good point is

the fact that(most!!)of these commands
from the vdi ,tos,and gem are present within every programming language , it's clearily
obvious which commands program the atari ..and which are basic computations..
then which left remaining are editor/compiller programming language specific.
.
i'm not going give examples again lonny we been through this before
i feel we wasted enough time previouslly searching for a soloution , the answers
recieved were logial and appropriate but not suitable for satisfying my methods of
programming the atari computer..or my "experimenting" a person will say.

you debugged the gfa programming language editor
you created your own package of editor linker compillier..
you reassembled it ..
and
you re circulated it..while using it ,understanding how it works ,
and helping others all the time ...
thats a great accomplishment !!!!!!!!!!
shows you know alot about computer ,but did you get thru all that
just by using simple one line code,
no you got thru that because you went to school and study computer...

i am eager to learn lonny , but i still have obstacles to overcome.

charles
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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby lp » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:52 pm

i don't know if any of this is even worth mentioning , but for some ..(non specific at this time) reason..i am always being repetivilly told to use the single line commands of gfa , and forget about the vdi the tos,and the aes .....
I did not say go back to GFA. What I find a bit annoying is that you will not clarify the exact points where this gave you trouble. I am quite certain at this point you did not read the manual, or if you did you did not grasp it at all. You wish to avoid stating, oh I see, yes I made a mistake, it was my fault. I did not know DEFTEXT command could do that.

You still don't get it do you.
:megaphone: The built in GFA commands are VDI, TOS, AES commands, just with simple more logical names.
You really don't have a clue do you. If you dis-assemble pascal and your gfa app you ported you will find they make the exact same OS calls. DEFTEXT ,,,x in fact compiles to vst_height().

If one line gets the job done, that's the most efficient way. Less clutter, less code, problem solved.

but did you get thru all that just by using simple one line code
There is nothing wrong with one line of code to solve a problem, in fact most programmers will say that is the goal. Now you are just being stupid.

no you got thru that because you went to school and study computer...
I have no formal training for computers whatsoever. I read a lot. That's all.

i am eager to learn lonny , but i still have obstacles to overcome.
I don't think so, in fact I'm more incline at this point to think you'd rather save face than have your problems cleared up for the benefit of other GFA readers. Fine be that way. You can't help someone who don't want to be helped. I'm done.

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Re: pascal ascii characters

Postby sh3-rg » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:08 pm

charles wrote:...the answers
recieved were logial and appropriate but not suitable for satisfying my methods of
programming the atari computer..


LOL


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