Vsyncing

A forum about SainT by James Boulton and Arnaud Carré - the current version is v2.4.0.

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Vsyncing

Postby bod/STAX » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:52 pm

Is there any way of getting SainT to PC vsync to 50hz?

The minimum seems to be 60hz and although everythig is really smooth it's a little to fast (esp. sound)

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Postby keops » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:13 am

As far as I know, minimum is 50Hz indeed.

A solution would be to set the refresh rate of your monitor a 100Hz if it supports it, it might give better results.

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Postby unseenmenace » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:43 am

Yeah, with STeem i run at 100Hz and its smooth as silk and flicker-free. Saint only lets me go down as far as 56Hz and up as far as 85Hz so I can't get good results.
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Postby leonard » Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:50 pm

Yeah, with STeem i run at 100Hz and its smooth as silk and flicker-free. Saint only lets me go down as far as 56Hz and up as far as 85Hz so I can't get good results.


windowed or fullscreen ?

In fullscreen, SainT display refresh rate windows can support. If I only display 56hz or 85hz, then it should not have any other mode. Are you sure steem is doing real 100 synced? (or is there some frame skipping?)
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Postby unseenmenace » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:48 am

leonard wrote:windowed or fullscreen ?

Fullscreen on a Radeon X800 XT if that makes any difference.

leonard wrote:In fullscreen, SainT display refresh rate windows can support. If I only display 56hz or 85hz, then it should not have any other mode. Are you sure steem is doing real 100 synced? (or is there some frame skipping?)

Well I know for certain that my graphics card and monitor can do 100Hz (even at 1600 x 1200) as I use that for my desktop setting as well. As for how well Steem is syncing I can only say that it looks absolutely perfect and runs at the correct speed (i.e. music plays at the right speed). I can only guess that there are some issues with SainT detecting the available refresh rates correctly.

EDIT: Saint gives me the following choices: 56, 60, 70, 72, 75 and 85Hz

Steem gives me the following: 50, 60, 72, 100 and 120Hz

Windows gives me (at 800 x 600): 47i, 56, 60, 70, 72, 75, 85, 90, 100, 120, 160 and 200Hz
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Postby leonard » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:16 am

humm looks very strange. I use directX driver to get the freuquency available. (using direct8device). Maybe steem use DirectDraw which is not the same. Humm have to look at my code more deeply.

Thanks for info !
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Postby unseenmenace » Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:43 pm

leonard wrote:humm looks very strange. I use directX driver to get the freuquency available. (using direct8device). Maybe steem use DirectDraw which is not the same. Humm have to look at my code more deeply.

I'm not sure but it looks like Steem just has a fixed choice of refresh rates and fails if you select one that isn't supported by the driver. At least Saint's list of refresh rates matches mine as far as the 85Hz one, it just doesn't give the whole list.
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Postby leonard » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:04 pm

Hey unseen menace, could you help me to solve that strange refresh rate problem? Do you have DxCapViewer installed on your machine (if you have DirectX SDK then it's installed in tools/bin directory). If not I guess you could find that program as a standalone (google is you friend). DxCapsView is an official Microsoft program.

Here is the log of dxcapsview on my machine:

you can notice DX only reports 60,75 or 85hz. Could you send me a picture of the report on your configuration? Does it match with the SainT combo box?

thanks in advance
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Postby unseenmenace » Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:58 am

leonard wrote:Hey unseen menace, could you help me to solve that strange refresh rate problem? Do you have DxCapViewer installed on your machine (if you have DirectX SDK then it's installed in tools/bin directory). If not I guess you could find that program as a standalone (google is you friend). DxCapsView is an official Microsoft program.

Sorry for the delay in replying Leonard, I managed to miss your last post until I was reminded about this thread by Guythp.

After much googling I eventually managed to get hold of a copy of DirectX Caps Viewer that showed the same type of info that yours does (I found a different older one initially). You will notice that it doesn't show any refresh rates above 85Hz even though both Windows Display Properties and the Catalyst Control Centre let me select refresh rates up to 120.

EDIT: The refresh rate overide option in Catalyst Control Centre shows the same refresh rates as DXCapsViewer but also has a Desktop refresh rate option (which is currently 100Hz), however Saint seems to overide the overide option :) . Could an option to leave the refresh rate unaltered work with that perhaps?
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Postby alexh » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:57 am

Why dont you just use PowerStrip to create a 50Hz 720x576 resolution... always works for me

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Postby unseenmenace » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:56 am

alexh wrote:Why dont you just use PowerStrip to create a 50Hz 720x576 resolution... always works for me

Well the odd thing is I can set the desktop to 100Hz or more but the DirectX system doesn't seem to allow it so I doubt it will allow any custom screen res I added either. Maybe its a driver issue but regardless I'm sure it would be better if SainT didn't require people to create a custom screen res with a 3rd party app. I will try Powerstrip just to see what happens anyway but its not an ideal solution for SainT as some people won't be up to using Powerstrip.
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Postby guythp » Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:08 pm

Hmm, powerstrip looks complicated.. And expensive!

Any other suggestions anyone?

*edit*

On second thoughts, having just messed with my graphics card and seen how much damage I can actually do to SainT without knowing what I'm doing. 56Hz is fine. I'll complain no more.. Certainly not about system restore.
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Postby unseenmenace » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:05 pm

guythp wrote:having just messed with my graphics card and seen how much damage I can actually do to SainT without knowing what I'm doing. 56Hz is fine. I'll complain no more.. Certainly not about system restore.

Well I don't know what programs you've tried but as an example the title music for Turrican II not only sounds too fast at 56Hz but the sound quality suffers as well. Maybe its just my setup?
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Postby ijor » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:23 pm

Hi Leonard,

leonard wrote:humm looks very strange. I use directX driver to get the freuquency available. (using direct8device). Maybe steem use DirectDraw which is not the same. Humm have to look at my code more deeply.


Just in case it might be useful: I don't know exactly what Steem uses. But Steem uses a very old DirectX version, it works both on Win 9X and on Win NT 4.

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Postby leonard » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:15 pm

I don't know exactly what Steem uses. But Steem uses a very old DirectX version, it works both on Win 9X and on Win NT 4.


don't know exactly but I guess it uses DirectDraw (wich is a very old 2d API, now included in directx since directx8). I really don't know how direct-draw could init some strange video modes that directx or windows drivers does not support :-(
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Postby unseenmenace » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:55 pm

alexh wrote:Why dont you just use PowerStrip to create a 50Hz 720x576 resolution... always works for me

Any chance you could check if DXCapsViewer shows your 50Hz mode in the list?
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Postby guythp » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:46 pm

unseenmenace wrote:
guythp wrote:having just messed with my graphics card and seen how much damage I can actually do to SainT without knowing what I'm doing. 56Hz is fine. I'll complain no more.. Certainly not about system restore.

Well I don't know what programs you've tried but as an example the title music for Turrican II not only sounds too fast at 56Hz but the sound quality suffers as well. Maybe its just my setup?


Yeah, sampled sound is messed up (in technical speak) for me too, but I'm prepared to live with that to get get smooth scrollers / scrolling (It's the little things that bug me!).

I was messing with the nvidia desktop set up thing. but it's all ok now. besides, if sampled sound takes priority, I can just turn off forced vsync..

... Until leonard can help :D
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Postby leonard » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:43 pm

... Until leonard can help


I really want to help... I love looking at demos, and atari demos need two things: smooth scrolling and good musak. Unfortunatly, this is a physical limit of emulation (not especially atari related): the host machine must provide the same (or integer multiple) or the original video rate. If not, you can't get both video and sound at the right speed.

The strange thing is the video rate under windows. It seems the monitor is very important (it may overlap video card drivers caps). it sounds normal, because an LCD screen should have a fixed frequency (I guess). And maybe it's worst: maybe those having a TFT screen (as me) have a fixed frequency, even if directx report 75, 72 or 85hz ??

I really want to help but I don't have solution (neither amiga emulators does....)

anyone else?
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Postby unseenmenace » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:36 pm

I hinted at it earlier but what would happen if SainT didn't specify the refresh rate at all and left it to the user to set the desired refresh rate. My Windows desktop certainly runs at 100Hz so presumably if I used the drivers refresh rate overide option to force 100Hz in 3D apps then SainT would run at 100Hz? I would still be interested to see if Alexh's 50Hz mode (from Powerstrip) registers in DXCapsViewer.
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Postby leonard » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:07 pm

My Windows desktop certainly runs at 100Hz


That's my main question: how are you sure about that? I mean, you may have a windows dialog box saying "100hz" but how did you tested it? I guess some windows report some screen rate wich may be different from reality (especially on a TFT or LCD monitor). Do you have a CRT monitor or a LCD?
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Postby unseenmenace » Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:54 pm

Its a CRT, a 21" Apple Studio Display to be precise. I have no way of measuring the refresh rate but I can actually tell from looking at it that its less flickery than at 75Hz for example. Also if I select 100Hz in Steem it syncs perfectly.
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Postby ijor » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:46 pm

Hi Leonard,

You have PM.


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