Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:47 pm

npomarede wrote:The result is that on STF the demo loader will crash immediately and the demo will hang.


"STE" wasn't such bad advice after all.


amilo3438 wrote:So, if someone can correct /patch the mistake on the demo detection routine, some of screens will work also on the ST mode.


That could be interesting because on my STE the "NGC" demo exhibited Shifter border bands on the logo when I tried.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 pm

amilo3438 wrote:Thanks for an detail explanation!

So, if someone can correct /patch the mistake on the demo detection routine, some of screens will work also on the ST mode. (But maybe better to keep it in original state and run on an STe instead.)
Cheers!

If you want to check the demo with correct STF mode, you need to write $0001 at address $8 while in the main menu.
Under Hatari, press ALT+Pause to enter the debugger, then type "w 8 00 01" + enter and type "c" to return to emulation.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:12 pm

npomarede wrote:If you want to check the demo with correct STF mode, you need to write $0001 at address $8 while in the main menu.
Under Hatari, press ALT+Pause to enter the debugger, then type "w 8 00 01" + enter and type "c" to return to emulation.

Hmm, I tried to press AltGr+Pause, but on the statusbar it shows "Console Debugger" and then it quickly disappears!
I have used official Hatari 2.0.0 but it happens on older versions too. Wonder is it something needed to enable it 1st in the config file?

Ps. With Alt+Pause get "Emulation paused"!

EDIT:
Ok, I started it now with the option "-W" to get the console debugger and it works fine now! (so its solved)

ST T104F 1024K (with debugger w 8 00 01)
---------------------------------------------------------
Delirious IV:
/ Niggle it --> fine
/ No scroll red devil --> fine
/ K.B.Jardin --> fine
/ Genunax --> fine
/ N.G.C. --> logo glitches! (same in hatari 2.0.0 in STE mode)
/ Chromax T.S.B. --> fine
/ Del3 enulator --> after changing disk nothing happens! (in STE mode it start to load and hangs)
/ HLM demo --> fine
/ Vodka - hangs! (same in hatari 2.0.0 in STE mode)
/ We are not rippers! T.M.F. --> glitches! (same in hatari 2.0.0 in STE mode)
/ Putain jme taperais bign un... T.B.C. --> fine
/ Fulltrak so khz --> hangs after loading! (in STE mode it starts but very soon black screen!)
/ Push-it --> fine, after "quit to demo" hangs! (same in STE mode)
/ Columns -- fine
/ Lemming fu.k --> fine
/ Tekila --> glitches! (in STE mode works fine)
/ Boring demo --> fine
/ Nightmare --> fine
/ Mufe --> fine
/ La Miga demo --> On Esc key -> hangs (in STE mode fine)
/ 90 demo --> fine
/ Philips --> On space key at "Never fu.k mcs again!" -> hangs (in STE mode fine)


According to above test the Tekila demo works fine only in STE mode! (+La Miga and Philips)

Steven Seagal wrote:
amilo3438 wrote:So, if someone can correct /patch the mistake on the demo detection routine, some of screens will work also on the ST mode.

That could be interesting because on my STE the "NGC" demo exhibited Shifter border bands on the logo when I tried.

Interesting could be also why on SEE emu in STE+4Mb mode the "NGC" demo works with T106 and hangs with T162?
(I guess your real STE has T106.)

On Hatari emu in STE+4Mb mode the "NGC" demo does not crashes with T162 nor T106! (only the logo glitches)

EDIT:
On SEE emu in STE+4Mb mode the "NGC" demo does not hang with T162 if Hacks option is disabled! (so this is solved)

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby amilo3438 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:46 pm

Maybe one proposal for the improvement:

If in the Floppy disk drive is an .zip file with several images already active, it would be good when next time goto Browse button to see only content of this .zip file until press on Eject button!
In current implementation it knows to be pretty frustrating sometimes if .zip file is already active that after pressing on Browse button to go again into folder and select the same .zip file just to choose a next image from it.

Cheers!

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:26 am

Doing a file selector with plain SDL is pretty horrible, and the zip support makes the code even more awful update (I don't think anybody's enthuastic to touch it).

I'd recommend getting the images out of the Zip and compressing them individually with Gzip. That produces smaller files than using Zip. :-)

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 ... - sound issues on TT emul.

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:51 pm

Yes, it is 1 year from release now, and I went only now in dealing with Hatari 2.0.0's TT emulation. Just was too busy with other things, not only Atari related.
So, as I see PMMU emulation is pretty good now, what is great improvement, especially for my game adaptations. Tried couple games, and they work fine, without need for removing PMMU code. But I observed serious sound issues - for instance in Dungeon Master - original and by me done DMAA sample playback updated versions just have some timing issues - sound plays too fast and is distorted. Then tried some simple audio player what uses STE compatible DMA audio, and same problem - very bad sound. I don't see here that someone reported this. There are some speed issues not sound related - booting from emulated ACSI is for instance pretty much slow (waiting of TOS is aborted, of course).
I tested only Windows 64-bit v.
And one more good thing: I was able to catch where Hard 'n' Heavy crashes on TT. It is music playback code (PSG), something really weird. Strangely, it works on Falcon. I need little time to understand how it actually works, then will replace with normal code (lower speed will not harm on fast TT).
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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby checksum » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:59 pm

amilo3438 wrote:
So I did some test in Hatari 2.0.0 with STE T162UK 1024K config and get this results:

M.C.S: Delirious IV... test results:

/ Votka - hangs!




The Vodka Demo (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=4163) is running fine under Hatari 2.0.0.
- ST Mode, Tos 1.02fr 1Mb
- STE Mode, Tos 1.62fr 1Mb

Didn't test with UK tos. Maybe the problem comes from a 60Hz vblank at boot time.

Regards.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 ... - sound issues on TT emul.

Postby npomarede » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:38 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Yes, it is 1 year from release now, and I went only now in dealing with Hatari 2.0.0's TT emulation. Just was too busy with other things, not only Atari related.
So, as I see PMMU emulation is pretty good now, what is great improvement, especially for my game adaptations. Tried couple games, and they work fine, without need for removing PMMU code. But I observed serious sound issues - for instance in Dungeon Master - original and by me done DMAA sample playback updated versions just have some timing issues - sound plays too fast and is distorted. Then tried some simple audio player what uses STE compatible DMA audio, and same problem - very bad sound. I don't see here that someone reported this. There are some speed issues not sound related - booting from emulated ACSI is for instance pretty much slow (waiting of TOS is aborted, of course).
I tested only Windows 64-bit v.
And one more good thing: I was able to catch where Hard 'n' Heavy crashes on TT. It is music playback code (PSG), something really weird. Strangely, it works on Falcon. I need little time to understand how it actually works, then will replace with normal code (lower speed will not harm on fast TT).

Hi
always interesting to get some feedback for TT, especially for games, as people are often using the TT in "profesionnal" mode.
Do you have any example of a program that would play sound correctly on STE, but doesn't on TT, so I can compare ?
Hopefully it's just a simple "clock ratio" problem.
Or do you mean sound is bad on STE too ? But that would be really strange, as it was verified with some really timing sensitive demos by DHS for example.

In all cases, a new hatari release might be coming in one month or so, so it would be good to fix as much as we can in the problem you found.

Nicolas

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:43 pm

All what I mentioned works well on STE, and even on real TT HW - talking about sound issues. I can provide here DMAA playback proggie. Games can be DL-ed on my site http://atari.8bitchip.info/fromhd.php
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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:49 pm

Yes, please can you post the DMA playback pogram so I can try it ?

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:13 pm

checksum wrote:The Vodka Demo (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=4163) is running fine under Hatari 2.0.0.
- ST Mode, Tos 1.02fr 1Mb
- STE Mode, Tos 1.62fr 1Mb

Didn't test with UK tos. Maybe the problem comes from a 60Hz vblank at boot time.

Regards.

Great some Equinox members coming here :)

I think amilo3438 was speaking about the vodka screen in the Delirious IV, not about the Vodka demo itself, which I confirm works with any TOS.

But I just tried it again to check and I confirm something is broken in the Vodka demo : it will crash in STF mode with more than 1 MB RAM :(
This is because the loader writes "0x04" to FFFF8001 to force the MMU to 512 KB during the whole demo.
The problem is that by doing so this breaks the MMU/RAM mapping in case the STF had 2MB per memory bank (it will work in STE mode with 2MB because the MMU has a more "linear" mapping in the STE, so reducing a bank size doesn't mess with all the address bits)
Did no one in Equinox had an STF with 2MB or 4 MB ? :)

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:15 am

npomarede wrote:Yes, please can you post the DMA playback pogram so I can try it ?

Here is it: http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/STEAPL.ZIP
Program self is short, but there is proper format audio file what it can play - 50066 Hz, stereo, delta packing . 25033 Hz is supported too.
It works well with Hatari 2.0.0 in STE and Falcon emulation, only in TT emulation there is speed problem and distortion.
As I remember, I tried it on real TT, and it was OK. So, if you can check on real TT, for case . Maybe there is some nasty diff. in ADMA setting - although it would be surprise, since TT ADMA is claimed same as in STE .
During testings one strange bug happened - after doing STE and Falcon emulation tests, I set it back to TT emul. and then it started in monochrome mode, despite that video setting was on RGB. Loading cfg file (with RGB mode, of course) did not help, only restarting Hatari .
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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:59 pm

Hi, I tried your test program in TT mode with Hatari 2.0, and sound result is perfectly clear, similar to STE, I don't hear any problem or distortion or speedup.

In my case, I used TT with TOS3.06, 1 MB RAM, CPU to 32 MHz + Cycle exact mode
Just to be sure it's not a config problem, can you remove your hatari.cfg temporarily and do the same test again (just loading TOS3.06 when Hatari starts should be enough).
Hatari will start with default values and in case it works it will help to see the differences with your config.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:01 pm

Running TT mode without cfg file resulted in same behavior.
This GTBT.WAE is with samplerate of 50066 Hz. There is no much distortion, but if you listen carefully, there will be some jumps during playback like jumping couple secs ahead . Unless you tested on Linux and problem appears only in Win. v.
I tested other WAE, which is with 25033 samplerate, and it is much worse - there is well noticeable distortion in TT emul. + jumps. And funny, jumps in STE emul. mode, without distortion. To add that in Steem it plays flawless.
http://atari.8bitchip.info/TestMe/DOWNOC.ZIP

But things are much worse with Dungeon Master: http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/dmrd.html
DL first file - DL Adma v. It has modded v. with DMA audio (RUNADMA.TOS) and org. YM audio (RUNYM.TOS), and both are very bad in TT emulation.
Again, may be that only Win v. is problematic. I will look to try it in my Ubuntu install when catch some time ...
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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:06 pm

I will check Dungeon Master too ; in the meatime, do you use the hatari 2.0 windows build from http://download.tuxfamily.org/hatari/2.0.0/ ?
If so, those builds use an older version of SDL1 which has lower performance under windows ; could you try with the build from http://antarctica.no/~hatari/hatari-f9d ... b/windows/ for example, as this uses SDL2 ?

EDIT : in my case, tests are made under Linux, I don't have a windows install to try.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:23 pm

npomarede wrote:could you try with the build from http://antarctica.no/~hatari/hatari-f9d ... b/windows/ for example, as this uses SDL2 ?

Unfortunately, it does not start/work on my WinXP 32-bit system for some reason! (while 2.0.0 works pretty fine) :(

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:22 pm

That SDL2 release was blocked by Avast antivirus - they should soon finish examination and then will probably crash - as it crashed right after start ...
Unfortunately, this is not good way for fixing problems, bugs - can we have direct access to people who deal with Windows versions ?

I tried to test it in Linux, but my Ubuntu install is messed up from some reason - I changed only GFX card - same AMD/ATI brand. And what works not is Ubuntu Software - where could search for special Ubuntu build of Hatari. Then I searched for with Firefox - what works well, and after DL-ing DEB package clicked on install, and nothing from it ... So, I think that will need to DL some newer Ubuntu and install it ....
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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:04 pm

AtariZoll wrote:That SDL2 release was blocked by Avast antivirus - they should soon finish examination and then will probably crash - as it crashed right after start ...
Unfortunately, this is not good way for fixing problems, bugs - can we have direct access to people who deal with Windows versions ?

Not much we can do if avast detects some false positives and blocks the SDL2 version. Maybe disable your antivirus for a moment or use another one, but that's not the subject.
As for contacting people who deal with the Windows version of Hatari, there's not really such people in fact. All developpers are using linux and we have some people using OSX that help maintaining the OSX version by providing patch. But unfortunately no one ever volunteer to handle the windows version and send code in case some things would not work.
The only thing we can do it to provide a cross compiled version for Windows, which I usually test under Linux by running it with Wine, it's not foolproof, but I can't do much more.
I tried to test it in Linux, but my Ubuntu install is messed up from some reason - I changed only GFX card - same AMD/ATI brand. And what works not is Ubuntu Software - where could search for special Ubuntu build of Hatari. Then I searched for with Firefox - what works well, and after DL-ing DEB package clicked on install, and nothing from it ... So, I think that will need to DL some newer Ubuntu and install it ....

In case it doesn't work for Ubuntu, I know there's a RPM version that is maintained for Fedora and for Mageia. You can try installing those distribs in case you're stuck with Ubuntu.

Sorry, can't do much more to help, this is an OS setup problem for the moment.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:51 pm

This will be longer. You have been warned :D
Well. I did not have so many problems with Ubuntu in 4 years together as in last 24 hours. After I installed 16.04.03 LTS on place of problematic 16.04.xx I went on testing Hatari under Linux. Just to mention here that most likely reason for not working SW install was that they added in meantime need to register at Ubuntu One, and that was requirement for installing SW, at least via Ubuntu SW Center (what seems used by installing DEB packages too ??? ).
So, it found instantly Hatari 2.0.0 for later Ubuntus, and installed in seconds. I DL-ed quickly files needed for test, set TT mode, and then noticed that no keyboard ckick. Started audio player - and no sound ! :roll: Tried to set it, bu everything was set correct in Hatari and in Linux. Sound tests of OS worked well. Then tried some things with Hatari, and seen that is not possible to type filename for cfg save. Even AltGr+X for speed up worked not .
And Ubuntu gave me some error messages from time to time. Tried to install some other binary v. - from DEB package, and there was same sound problem. After some attempts, whole SW install went again problematic.
So, I decided to install Ubuntu 17 - and it was lucky idea - since there problems did not appear, and Hatari works very well. Audio playback is better than in Windows from that simple player. But Dungeon Master is actually worse. YM playback in game is same bad, while there is no ADMA sound in DM (modded), or it is extremely low amplitude. To add that is possible to save cfg file, accelerating works. I'm really surprised that 16.04.03 LTS is so problematic.

Now, back to Windows version problems: in TT emulation CPU load is extremely high - even on Desktop, when no any activity, except CPU works at 32 MHz - it is 18-20% on 4GHz quad core CPU, what means that 1 core on which Hatari works is loaded 80% . Turning off prefetch mode makes CPU load some 2% less, so still too high load. This is just not normal. Any extra activity, and CPU load is practically over 100% (for 1 active core), what may be explanation for jumping sound. I think that it is not efficient code at all. Steem with CPU set to 128 MHz has lower load. Sure that it is more directly coded, but I never expected that emulating TT on some 4GHz CPU can be slow.
I guess that audio problems in DM are from some other reasons, at least some.

What could be solution ? Using more cores ? That will indeed trigger new problems, and I guess that timing will be even more problematic.

To add that SDL2 version of Hatari 2.0.0 , what was examined by Avast and declared harmless crashes instantly after starting it.
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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:15 pm

AtariZoll wrote:So, I decided to install Ubuntu 17 - and it was lucky idea - since there problems did not appear, and Hatari works very well. Audio playback is better than in Windows from that simple player. But Dungeon Master is actually worse. YM playback in game is same bad, while there is no ADMA sound in DM (modded), or it is extremely low amplitude. To add that is possible to save cfg file, accelerating works. I'm really surprised that 16.04.03 LTS is so problematic.

Well, I really can't tell. Others people here using Hatari under Linux never reported such problems, and Hatari with SDL2 under OSX is also known to work pretty well.
Maybe there's a problem in the way the .deb package was made. Or maybe your sound card is not correctly supported by SDL2 or maybe Ubuntu uses a badly configured alsa/pulseaudio sound server in your case, I can't tell. Does YM sounds bad only in Dungeon master or does it also sound bad in some others STF/STE games or demos ?
Now, back to Windows version problems: in TT emulation CPU load is extremely high - even on Desktop, when no any activity, except CPU works at 32 MHz - it is 18-20% on 4GHz quad core CPU, what means that 1 core on which Hatari works is loaded 80% . Turning off prefetch mode makes CPU load some 2% less, so still too high load. This is just not normal. Any extra activity, and CPU load is practically over 100% (for 1 active core), what may be explanation for jumping sound. I think that it is not efficient code at all. Steem with CPU set to 128 MHz has lower load. Sure that it is more directly coded, but I never expected that emulating TT on some 4GHz CPU can be slow.
I guess that audio problems in DM are from some other reasons, at least some.

If sound was good in falcon mode, you can try setting the TT mode to 16 MHz instead of 32. This should use same ressource as the falcon, so if the sound is correct, then it's a problem due to not enough CPU power for emulation.
On my 3.4 Ghz intel 8 core cpu, Hatari takes 45% of a cpu core, so that's not a lot, and I never had sound skipping issues (but this is under Linux with SDL2, SDL1 under Windows will make things much worse).
As for the comparison with Steem, simulating a 128 MHz 68000 CPU is not necessarily the same as emulating a 68030 cpu with instruction/data caches ; at similar freq, 68030 emulation is much more complex (and 68030 instructions take less cycles than their 68000 equivalent, so you have more instructions per second to emulate in the end).
What could be solution ? Using more cores ? That will indeed trigger new problems, and I guess that timing will be even more problematic.

multithreading emulation is really complex, you possibly can't spread the cpu emulation itself on several cores, you would loss much more time in handling semaphores or similar to keep threads in sync.
To add that SDL2 version of Hatari 2.0.0 , what was examined by Avast and declared harmless crashes instantly after starting it.

This is strange, as far as I know some people use the version at antartica.no and never reported such crash. I might have access to a Windows PC with windows this week end, I will try to install Hatari 64 bits there.
In the meantime, I think that Windows version using SDL1 should not be use to measure heavy loads, SDL1 was reported to be not efficient enough sometimes under Windows (and also OSX).

Nicolas

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby amilo3438 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:27 pm

npomarede wrote:As for the comparison with Steem, simulating a 128 MHz 68000 CPU is not necessarily the same as emulating a 68030 cpu with instruction/data caches ; at similar freq, 68030 emulation is much more complex (and 68030 instructions take less cycles than their 68000 equivalent, so you have more instructions per second to emulate in the end).

I guess that the JIT engine from WinUAE might improve the performance on 68030 a lot! (regarding TT and Falcon)

Ps. I know from experience by testing some demos for Amiga 68030/40 CPU in WinUAE...
my PC is too slow to run those in cycle-exact mode, but with JIT engine enabled it runs pretty fine.

Cheers!

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:38 pm

amilo3438 wrote:I guess that the JIT engine from WinUAE might improve the performance on 68030 a lot! (regarding TT and Falcon)

Ps. I know from experience by testing some demos for Amiga 68030/40 CPU in WinUAE...
my PC is too slow to run those in cycle-exact mode, but with JIT engine enabled it runs pretty fine.

Cheers!

Yes, JIT could be enabled sometimes but first we need to have a more cycle accurate 68030 emulation for falcon (which is required when CPU and DSP send data to each other without handshake for faster results).
But there's no mystery, in the end when you emulate 68030 with prefetching/cycle exact/MMU enabled/caches + DSP (which can execute nearly 8 times more instructions than CPU per second !) you need a powerful CPU :)

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby amilo3438 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:11 pm

Yep, but an powerful CPU with max 1 core performance, as other cores doesn't help much in emulation now.
I wonder if display part could be moved on the 2nd core, as it usually only reads/converts screen memory to display!?
Also, regarding accurate 68030 emulation, as things looks now, not possible without knowing how the internal sequencer works. :)

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby npomarede » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:22 pm

amilo3438 wrote:Yep, but an powerful CPU with max 1 core performance, as other cores doesn't help much in emulation now.
I wonder if display part could be moved on the 2nd core, as it usually only reads/converts screen memory to display!?

Yes, some rendering (video or sound) could be passed to another cpu core, but it's not always easy because for "advanced" video effects in demos you need to update screen as soon as possible after cpu modifies HW. This would require to store a whole VBL of video/sound data changes with their exact timing and pass this to another thread (and even then, some atari specific shifter cases would not work). A huge added complexity which might not be worth the effort (WinUAE also does all the main emulation on a single core). Other cores could be more likely used for postprocessing effects (scaling, shaders, sound, video recording, ...)
Also, regarding accurate 68030 emulation, as things looks now, not possible without knowing how the internal sequencer works. :)
I know, but with some empirical testing I think we could find some closer results that would explain some not yet accurate cases. But this is a huge work because cache and prefetching can really change result in non obvious ways.

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Re: Hatari 2.0.0 has been released

Postby amilo3438 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:42 pm

Yes, it is pretty complicated to sync all this needed exact timings if we want to use more cores.
My idea is for example to use core 1 for emu engine loop and other cores for tasks that will be called from this loop anyway and where the core 1 than just continues with what is next! (but I guess that this idea would be also not easy to implement)

Thanks for your answers and cheers!


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