PASTI: is it really preservation?

In this forum you'll find more information about the Pasti & VAPI Tools and the Preservation Project built around these tools. Come on in to find out more about it and discuss these projects.

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Marcer » Sat May 29, 2010 11:39 pm

lotek_style wrote:Marcer: I would go one step further and think ALL versions should be available online... so practically your game dvd integrated :P


I had such vision one time ago.. but always a BUT in such cases.. argh... I hope NOW when my gamedvd is ONLINE ppl will help out to fill out a complete GAMELIST of Atari ST/E/Falcon.. please bang me with alter file-listings etc etc.. im open for open-minded.. unless.. bugs :P

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Sun May 30, 2010 10:39 am

Jake/Depression wrote:You thing new imageformat not are needet because you not are made it. :p
Thing it little more.
Because there is so many games and only some crackers and fixers, we need made backups or some protected games are so called "lost". Thats reason why pasti is good thing. (I personally like cracks and like these nice intros what is includet in too.)
There is some games what are originally harddisk compatible or password protected only and i thing it is good idea put these games in Atarimania in msa files too, so real Atari users can used them before some program is made.


I don't thing , pardon think that you understand anything of my points. It is good to have Pasti. Certainly a lot of work is behind. But Pasti has its limits, and worse, it is closed. What I wanted to say is that best would be that we have games straight from developers, in unprotected variants, which certainly existed by most of them. Of course, it is just a wish, and we will see only small number of games in such form. ST, MSA would be perfect for such game versions - this is why I said that no need for new formats.
Putting hard disk compatible games in MSA format online ? That's complete wrong way - despite that someone who joined this thread use it :) How to put 2MB in MSA and then write it to some floppy ? Not to mention that most of hard disk users transforms files on his hard disks, cards without bothering with unreliable and expensive floppies. Nobody doing hard disk fixes uses floppy images, but regular ZIP or RAR archives.
Your english seems broken... what you wanted to say with: " so real Atari users can used them before some program is made" ?

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Jake/Depression » Sun May 30, 2010 4:42 pm

You know too it's only some original game makers made this nice thing so other ways is needet.
I mean real original floppys, not some 2meg things.
This way they work in these new floppyimage emulators too. (They read msa and who wanna used original machine can unpack originalversion.)

(Last mean only before pasti to Atari converter is made.)
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Marcer » Sun May 30, 2010 4:58 pm

SofiST wrote:You thing new imageformat not are needet because you not are made it. :p

Putting hard disk compatible games in MSA format online ? That's complete wrong way - despite that someone who joined this thread use it :) How to put 2MB in MSA and then write it to some floppy ? Not to mention that most of hard disk users transforms files on his hard disks, cards without bothering with unreliable and expensive floppies. Nobody doing hard disk fixes uses floppy images, but regular ZIP or RAR archives.


And there is a must to download these msa's?
Sorry we cant make 4mb msa files then it would been even cooler! :P
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby farvardin » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:27 am

Jake/Depression wrote: we need made backups or some protected games are so called "lost". Thats reason why pasti is good thing.


The original question was not "do we need saving a real dump of the original floppies", but "do we need such a tool which is closed source, and may not allow further use of the saved data in the future". It's a bit like when you get Microsoft Works for free with your computer, you can save your documents into their closed source format, and then can't open it in the future if you switch to OpenOffice on Linux for example...

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:12 am

farvardin wrote:The original question was not "do we need saving a real dump of the original floppies", but "do we need such a tool which is closed source, and may not allow further use of the saved data in the future". It's a bit like when you get Microsoft Works for free with your computer, you can save your documents into their closed source format, and then can't open it in the future if you switch to OpenOffice on Linux for example...


We certainly need something for 'preserving' copyprotected Atari floppies. As at moment Pasti is practically only, which can imaging most of such floppies we should be satisfied with it.
Everyone is free to do new format, open source etc... (Not that I think that it will happen really :| ).

In any case, Pasti has future, even in current state - there will be computers able to running it for some decades.

Considering said about Microsoft, their motives are clear - getting new custumers for Microsoft SW. What are Ijor's motivations to not publishing specs is mystery :?

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby alexh » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:40 am

SofiST wrote:Problem with Pasti is that you need working Atari ST and original floppy(es) of game. Many of old programmers have no Atari ST anymore.

I don't think that is true and I am sure they know someone with one.

SofiST wrote:I don't think that new image format is required. Best solution would be to post unprotected originals - what happened couple times.

An old developer is more likely to have access to a working Atari ST and a copy of their original game than they are to the source code, gfx & music data plus tools to create an unprotected original. Not to mention that they are so rusty they introduce bugs during the copy protection removal (as happened to Dragonflight)

SofiST wrote:Someone removes crack intros, fixes bugs, TOS incompatibilities etc. and working on archive with all available image formats (which have sense) + hard disk runnable ZIP archives : http://petari.co.cc/astgam.php

I applaud your work, but this is not preservation. The original data being used is here of uncertain origin. It could have (and often is) butchered during the crack process to make it smaller. Not to mention that some cracks were early beta's.

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:06 pm

alexh wrote:...
An old developer is more likely to have access to a working Atari ST and a copy of their original game than they are to the source code, gfx & music data plus tools to create an unprotected original. Not to mention that they are so rusty they introduce bugs during the copy protection removal (as happened to Dragonflight)
SofiST wrote:Someone removes crack intros, fixes bugs, TOS incompatibilities etc. and working on archive with all available image formats (which have sense) + hard disk runnable ZIP archives : http://petari.co.cc/astgam.php

I applaud your work, but this is not preservation. The original data being used is here of uncertain origin. It could have (and often is) butchered during the crack process to make it smaller. Not to mention that some cracks were early beta's.


Usually there were unprotected versions of game for diverse purposes.

Point is in saving best what is available at moment, and giving chance for people to correct errors, offer better copy etc.
Point is in offering all formats which have sense. Original is uncertain origin ? And what is certain ? How you can be sure that you got 100% OK Pasti from someone ? Or even that your Pastification is 100% OK ?
You call packing 'butchering' ? Actually, most of cracks is complete - much more problem is with poor coding.
Some cracks were early betas ? For sure, but then, even some realised games are buggy, and were never fixed.
So, I think that hunting perfection is pretty non-realistic behaviour. We need to work with what we can access.

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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Desty » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:05 am

rocket-dog wrote:What I am saying in more poetic way is that one of Shakespeare's sonnets sounds just a good read from a paperback complete works bought in a super market as it does read from a Tudor original.

Perhaps, although I've never read a Tudor original - maybe it would add a certain authenticity and excitement to the feel :D

I'd prefer if we can keep and catalogue all of the versions, every crack (even the broken ones) and the originals with protections where applicable. Even the protections have some historical interest.
If I happened to dig up an original manuscript by Shakespeare (relatively uncommon in Irish back gardens :P), complete with a flimsy locking mechanism he built himself, I would not destroy it and only keep the body of the text.
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby CoolCoyote » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:49 pm

SofiST wrote:This reminds me about game Alien Blast: only available is Vectronix crack, but it crashes at level 3. So, does anyone knows about good image(s), and if can post here link, or image(s) self :angel:


got the originals somewhere at my parents's home

the ones before "gold" i mean,without protection
but can't remember if it's an ste/falcon version or falcon only
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby lotek_style » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:47 pm

I wonder of somebody until now managed to patch the PASTI-programm to run on falcon. It would be so much easier to provide some dumps.
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Klapauzius » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:56 pm

lotek_style wrote:I wonder of somebody until now managed to patch the PASTI-programm to run on falcon. It would be so much easier to provide some dumps.

Pasti imager relies on very exact CPU timings, so I think this would be very hard to do.
Even when you run the Falcon at 8MHz and disable the caches, the timings would be too different.
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby lotek_style » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:48 pm

so it's a MHZ problem? Would it work on a Mega STE with 16 Mhz?
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Klapauzius » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:49 pm

lotek_style wrote:so it's a MHZ problem? Would it work on a Mega STE with 16 Mhz?

Nope, only at 8MHz. I did some 'pastifying' on my MegaSTE @ 8 MHz. :)
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Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby DarkLord » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:42 pm

Yes, I can do Pasti Images on my Mega ST4 equipped with an Adspeed (16mhz)
accelerator, but only if I set the speed to 8mhz. Otherwise, it errors out.

Apparently the timing is *crucial*.
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