Rogue

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Stefan jL
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:27 pm

ijor wrote:I'm not sure you understand my point. All I'm saying is to change the term "dump" for "release", because otherwise it might imply that the problem is specific to the dump and not to the disk/software/release.



I have edited the entry and added some additional info so no one does a mistake and play it on newer TOS versions :)

If i find my Mastertronic copy so can i make a SCP dump of it.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:45 pm

Here is a SCP dump of my Mastertronic original... it crashes in Steem SSE if not Tos 1.0is used tehn it just ask for disk b unless the same disk is in both diskdrive A and B :) Still get the scum of earth message though.
http://arcade.ym2149.com/files/scpro/untested/rogue_mastertronic.7z
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Re: Rogue

Postby Marakatti » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:01 pm

rogue_epyx_additional_file.JPG
rogue_mastertronic.zip
rogue_epyx_additional_file.JPG
ijor wrote:
Marakatti wrote:Ok, please tell me how to put it and i'll update the text. I'm not a coder or know nothing about disk protections so i don't know anything about what's happening "inside the disk".

If i write it requires TOS 1.0 i get reports that it works even though people won't play it enough to understand the protection gets activated with TOS 1.2 and greater.


I'm not sure you understand my point. All I'm saying is to change the term "dump" for "release", because otherwise it might imply that the problem is specific to the dump and not to the disk/software/release.

Currently the record claims: "Dump only works correctly with TOS 1.0 due to a copy protection".
I suggest to change it to something like this: "The original release only works correctly with TOS 1.0 due to a copy protection".

I also wonder if the Mastertronic release is different...


It seems so according to a dump I have. And it looks like you have, or had, a Mastertronic dump. Did you read the other message I posted above? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32007#p324104


Yes i misunderstood your point, sorry. Thanks Stefan for correcting the entry.

Here's the Mastertronic release. At least it was labelled as a Mastertronic dump when it was sent to us a couple of years ago. Impossible to check these type of things if there's no scans available in the same attachment :(

@Brume: Are you sure your dump is from Epyx release? I think there was the "extra" save-file on the disk i uploaded yesterday. Now that Ijor pointed out Mastertronic release having traces of one i just want to make sure.

@Ijor: Do you have a name for the savegamefile the Mastertronic version had?
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Last edited by Marakatti on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:04 pm

pic from Mastertronic release playing in Steem SSE TOS 1.0.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Marakatti » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:07 pm

Stefan jL wrote:pic from Mastertronic release playing in Steem SSE TOS 1.0.


Is that from your dump or the one i just posted?
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:15 pm

My dump.. the SCP.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:10 pm

Now i have tried my Mastertronic release with two of my ST's... one with TOS 1.02 (or 1.04?) and one with 1.0 and it still crashes when defeatingt an enemy and shows 4 bombs.
Worth mentioning might be that both ST's use 1mb of RAM in case that causes problem with the program?
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Re: Rogue

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:20 pm

Stefan jL wrote:Now i have tried my Mastertronic release with two of my ST's... one with TOS 1.02 (or 1.04?) and one with 1.0 and it still crashes when defeatingt an enemy and shows 4 bombs.
Worth mentioning might be that both ST's use 1mb of RAM in case that causes problem with the program?

Crashing ? It may be damaged disk. Did not see it in my tests at all - there were problems with saving game in some cases, but never when defeat enemy, regardless from is protection passed or not. And I did not see any problems with more RAM.
Or just another case of crap release.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:28 pm

Yes it could be a damaged disk i don't have the knowledge to really check that kind of things unless there is a physical hole in the magnetic media.. that i can see ;)

My copy of Mastertronic Rogue do crash and so does the Atarimania STX Marakatti posted when playing in SteemSSE.
I guess it is possible the game saves the game when you defeat an enemy?

It have been many months (year) since i been using Steem SSE (or using my ST's regulary) so i am a bit rusty when it comes to compatability research :)
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:46 pm

I just opened the Epyx STX in HxCfloppy emulator software and converted it to SCP and wrote it back to disk and it played fine on my ST with TOS 1.0... there was no "scum of the earth" message... and no crashing.
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Re: Rogue

Postby dlfrsilver » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:46 am

yes... it needs TOS v1.00....
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:09 am

I just ment i wrote the Epyx version back to disk and played on a real ST, to confirm it was a good dump :)

The Mastertronic is not working on the two ST's i tested it on and not working in Steem SSE, it crashes and Ijor said his STX dump also crashes and the STX from Atarimania also crashes in Steem SSE... was the Mastertronic version ever playable when it was released? Are we doing something wrong? Is it the age of the disk that is the problem?
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Re: Rogue

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:22 am

There's a bug in Steem SSE, I'll fix it soon so that the game doesn't call you names. :)
And some images may be wrong.

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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:37 am

Well i don't think Steem SSE is behaving that different from an real ST... it crashes the game when the game crashes on a real ST when playing the Mastertronic release. the only difference is that when SSSE uses tos1.0 so does it ask for "disk b" and that does not happen on my ST (with TOS 1.0).
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Re: Rogue

Postby dlfrsilver » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:25 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:There's a bug in Steem SSE, I'll fix it soon so that the game doesn't call you names. :)
And some images may be wrong.


Now it's getting interesting, i'll pick my pop-corn (i really wonder what kind of bug is creeping in the emulator....)

Can you tell us what it is Steve ?
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Re: Rogue

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:42 pm

Wrong WD1772 status register after command $D0, CRC bit wasn't cleared, so it did the same in TOS 1.0 as in later TOS. :(
In fact it's surprising that the bug didn't break more games.

Fixed now in the dev build.

rogue_ok.png

At least I wasn't called 'scum of the earth'.

Steem's 'ghost disk' feature also seems to work with this game for the writes.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Brume » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:00 pm

Great, thank you for this fix, Steven.

Also, looks like it fixes the bug for the game 'Realms' that didn't load (I was writing a post about it when you posted the new beta version, which solves the issue). Unless you fixed another bug in this release?

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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:27 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:Wrong WD1772 status register after command $D0, CRC bit wasn't cleared, so it did the same in TOS 1.0 as in later TOS. :(
In fact it's surprising that the bug didn't break more games.


Great this update fixes so you can complete Targhan in Steem SSE :)

But i can still not play the Mastertronic release of Rogue? It crashes (shows 4 bombs) when defeating an enemy? What am i missing?
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Re: Rogue

Postby ijor » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:19 am

The original Epyx release is good. It just requires TOS 1.0 for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The SCP image didn't work in Steem because the bug that Steven fixed. It affected the internal Steem emulation only (not Pasti).

Brume's dump is the Epyx release. Or at the very least is not the Mastertronic release. It is probably even better than the image at Atarimania because that Pasti image was taken from a modified disk that includes a saved game. Brume's disk seems to be never written and unmodified.

The Mastertronic release is again, pretty wierd, and doesn't work. Thanks to Stefan's tests we know that it is not a problem with the dumps. And the disk is not damaged because it is exactly the same with three different dumps from three different disks. It is a problem with this version itself.

It is interesting that with the Steem bug (now fixed in the dev build), Stefan find a way to make it work more or less. The protection still fails and it displays the anti pirating message on the tomb. But at least it doesn't crash. This behavior, failing but not crashing, seems to happen only with the buggy version of Steem. I am not too motivated to investigate it, but conceivable, there is a configuration (mem, TOS version, etc) that shows the same behavior in real hardware.

Marko, in my (perhaps, very personal) opinion. The dump of the Mastertronic release should be restored at Atarimania. The dump is good. It works as good and as bad as the actual disk on real hardware. Of course, some note describing the issue should be posted. At the very least, the text should be changed to mention that the version itself doesn't seem to work.

More technical details about the Mastertronic release later in a separate message ...

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Re: Rogue

Postby ijor » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:02 am

More technical details about the Mastertronic release

The disk seems to be mastered and duplicated in two different devices. The regular tracks (0-78) on one hand seem professionally duplicated. While the copy protected track, track 79, seems to be done separately. This track is not a faithful reproduction of the original copy protected in the Epyx release, but a manually crafted track that emulates the protection yielding almost the same result.

I'm not sure why it was done like this. May be they used cheap duplicators that couldn't handle the protection. May be they didn't have the original master to make the protection. Btw, this was quite common in the later generation of budget releases. We know they even sometimes used cracked versions. But it unusual, to say the least, on a Mastertronic release that shouldn't be that late.

The original protection is based on a couple of overlapped sectors (one sector embedded in the other) in such a way, because of their content, that it can't reproduced exactly with the standard FDC on the ST. In this case, in this budget release, this was replaced with two separate, non overlapped, sectors. And then this can be written and created with a plain ST. In addition, and because this take more space, they shortened the two first sectors. As you can see, a manually crafted track that when is read by the game it reads almost the same as the original. But they made a small mistake when crafting the track and the data is actually not identical as the original, so the protection test fails.

It is possible that this protection adaptation was made by Mastertronic, or somebody they hired. It is also possible they simply used a non original copy, a pirated copy that copied the original release with a software copier like Procopy. The latter might make more sense when you consider that the disk has a deleted saved game. But even then, it still seems that duplication of this track was performed separately.

In addition to this, when the game checks if the protection test failed, it crashes. That's at the point where on the original release it just makes more difficult to beat the enemies. I don't know exactly why it crashes and as I said, I'm not very motivated to investigate it. It doesn't seem to be related to the protection test fail. The point is that the protection test fails, even with TOS 1.0. And, in addition it crashes. The actual program was altered, so may be there was an attempt to crack it or at least modify it.

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Re: Rogue

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:50 am

I think that we should not waste more words on Mastertronic release. Done in 1988 - they didn't fix that it work on higher TOS version, contrary, they made it even worse. Those changes (16 bytes) in ROGUE.PRG make no sense, it's most likely damaged data.
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Re: Rogue

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:08 am

Steven Seagal wrote:Wrong WD1772 status register after command $D0, CRC bit wasn't cleared, so it did the same in TOS 1.0 as in later TOS. :(
In fact it's surprising that the bug didn't break more games.

Fixed now in the dev build.

rogue_ok.png
At least I wasn't called 'scum of the earth'.

Steem's 'ghost disk' feature also seems to work with this game for the writes.


ah thanks ! :)

@Brume : as said, your dump of Rogue is perfect :) Keep it safe ;)
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:01 pm

ijor wrote:Marko, in my (perhaps, very personal) opinion. The dump of the Mastertronic release should be restored at Atarimania. The dump is good. It works as good and as bad as the actual disk on real hardware. Of course, some note describing the issue should be posted. At the very least, the text should be changed to mention that the version itself doesn't seem to work.


Of course the Mastertronic dump should be present at Atarimania even if it is a not working game so is Atarimania also about documentation and if Mastertronic failed to release a working copy then it will be documented :) And if you want to play the game just use the Epyx dump or Atarizoll's HD version.

I wonder if Mastertronic realised that Rogue was not working and later released a fixed version? Or if it is playable on a very specific ST config?

Could anyone with original Mastertronics copy of Rogue please try it and see if it works (try and defeat enemies).
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Re: Rogue

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:20 pm

ijor wrote:More technical details about the Mastertronic release

The disk seems to be mastered and duplicated in two different devices. The regular tracks (0-78) on one hand seem professionally duplicated. While the copy protected track, track 79, seems to be done separately. This track is not a faithful reproduction of the original copy protected in the Epyx release, but a manually crafted track that emulates the protection yielding almost the same result.

I'm not sure why it was done like this. May be they used cheap duplicators that couldn't handle the protection. May be they didn't have the original master to make the protection. Btw, this was quite common in the later generation of budget releases. We know they even sometimes used cracked versions. But it unusual, to say the least, on a Mastertronic release that shouldn't be that late.

The original protection is based on a couple of overlapped sectors (one sector embedded in the other) in such a way, because of their content, that it can't reproduced exactly with the standard FDC on the ST. In this case, in this budget release, this was replaced with two separate, non overlapped, sectors. And then this can be written and created with a plain ST. In addition, and because this take more space, they shortened the two first sectors. As you can see, a manually crafted track that when is read by the game it reads almost the same as the original. But they made a small mistake when crafting the track and the data is actually not identical as the original, so the protection test fails.

It is possible that this protection adaptation was made by Mastertronic, or somebody they hired. It is also possible they simply used a non original copy, a pirated copy that copied the original release with a software copier like Procopy. The latter might make more sense when you consider that the disk has a deleted saved game. But even then, it still seems that duplication of this track was performed separately.

In addition to this, when the game checks if the protection test failed, it crashes. That's at the point where on the original release it just makes more difficult to beat the enemies. I don't know exactly why it crashes and as I said, I'm not very motivated to investigate it. It doesn't seem to be related to the protection test fail. The point is that the protection test fails, even with TOS 1.0. And, in addition it crashes. The actual program was altered, so may be there was an attempt to crack it or at least modify it.


At the same time, i don't see why Mastertronic would have use procopy when any standard duplicator can replicate this protection.

With a second owner dumping his original it could be confirmed or infirmed.
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Re: Rogue

Postby Stefan jL » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:24 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:With a second owner dumping his original it could be confirmed or infirmed.


You mean a fourth owner... now we have my SCP dump and ijor has dumped his copy and then there is the one from Atarimania :)
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