B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:07 am

Also found something surprising about those dongles.
Apparently, the dongle for BAT 2 was different on ST and Amiga.
The Amiga dongle, as described in WinUAE, is more like the ST dongle for Music Master.
The ST dongle is simpler.

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:43 am

Why audio dongle for Amiga ? - it had DMA audio always.
BAT II works without MV16 too, protection dongle is on serial port.

I disassembled launcher and CREATION.PRG - that is for now enough to play with MV16 playback code.
There is idea how to eliminate jitter, at price of slower work of game (not relevant at title track) :
Adding another Timer (D is free), what will be set on same freq. as Timer A, but activate some 50 microsecs earlier, and then just perform NOPs. That will make start of Timer A in exact moment, except rarer case when V-blank just happens, or Timer C - but later one can likely disable during audio.
Purpose is just to see (hear) difference in sound (compared to jitterish playback) - can test on real HW and in Steem SSE development build.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby CiH » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:01 pm

Another application with MV16 support is the Audio Sculpture tracker.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:26 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Why audio dongle for Amiga ? - it had DMA audio always.
BAT II works without MV16 too, protection dongle is on serial port.


Here, I was talking about the little protection dongle.
If the Amiga version used no cartridge, then in theory, the 12bit (16x8bit) Atari ST version could be superior!!

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:33 pm

I did pure digital (in Steem Debugger) extraction of title audio - no jitter, no distortion. It is only 10 bit in reality - the total amplitude (unsigned) never goes over $2FF . So, quality isn't really much better than 8-bit ADMA - talking about ideal playback, what is not case with MV16.
Putting it on 2 channels of STE will give better result. But that's not easy because need quality samplerate conversion . On fly not possible.
So, need to convert all audio data, what is not linear track.

http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCR2/battia.rar

Processed with Audacity. WAV is with original samplerate of 10 KHz, normalized, MP3 needed samplerate conversion to 12 KHz .
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:48 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Why audio dongle for Amiga ? - it had DMA audio always.
BAT II works without MV16 too, protection dongle is on serial port.


Here, I was talking about the little protection dongle.
If the Amiga version used no cartridge, then in theory, the 12bit (16x8bit) Atari ST version could be superior!!


There is no cartridge use for the Amiga version of BAT II, because it mostly have a crystal clear soundtrack. No need to use the MV16 or any sound cartridge.

Same Applies to BAT I Amiga.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Atari030 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:01 am

CiH wrote:Another application with MV16 support is the Audio Sculpture tracker.


That is the one I was thinking of. Not TCB. I thought it was a pretty cool idea. So the programs we know of that can use it are, BAT, BAT II, Music Mon and Audio Sculpture?

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby farvardin » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:01 am

dlfrsilver wrote:
There is no cartridge use for the Amiga version of BAT II, because it mostly have a crystal clear soundtrack. No need to use the MV16 or any sound cartridge.

Same Applies to BAT I Amiga.


I don't know if this Amiga version on youtube has a problem, but it's very sloooow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUoPg9iDa8
(in comparison to the one for Atari : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYJGTL0QrE )

I'm also wondering who is the original composer for the B.A.T. music, I was thinking of Charles Callet
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/shee ... perId,252/ but it's pure speculation...

It would be cool to implement this cartridge on the MiST fpga...

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:12 am

Atari030 wrote:That is the one I was thinking of. Not TCB. I thought it was a pretty cool idea. So the programs we know of that can use it are, BAT, BAT II, Music Mon and Audio Sculpture?


It's Music Master.
I checked Audio Sculpture, it has a lot of outputs, including Replay Pro/MV16, but I had no song to test it.

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:20 am

I'm not impressed at all with MV16 and it's sound quality. It is just cheap solution, with most of work left to SW. No proper analof filtering at output. Only mono. Actually, only slightly better than some 8-bit converter used on parallel ports.
And as I see, sound on floppies 2-3 is even lower quality - samplerate is about 5KHz.
STE ADMA is way better, despite being only 8 bit.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Atari030 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:01 pm

The STe wasn't around when Bat was released in 1989. It is cheap, but I find it interesting.

Noted, Steven. Ta. I'm certain I have a boxed Music Master lying around somewhere too.

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby dlfrsilver » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:09 pm

farvardin wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:
There is no cartridge use for the Amiga version of BAT II, because it mostly have a crystal clear soundtrack. No need to use the MV16 or any sound cartridge.

Same Applies to BAT I Amiga.


I don't know if this Amiga version on youtube has a problem, but it's very sloooow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUoPg9iDa8
(in comparison to the one for Atari : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYJGTL0QrE )


The Amiga music differs, and i don't know how the guy currently recorded the sound, because it never was that crystal clear on both releases i owned.

It was very noisy, and here it's almost crystal clear...... strange.....
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:22 pm

Recorded with WinUAE, most likely. Possible to clean with some audio SW after recording. In any case, really slow - adapted to Amiga people ? :mrgreen:
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby dlfrsilver » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:47 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Recorded with WinUAE, most likely. Possible to clean with some audio SW after recording. In any case, really slow - adapted to Amiga people ? :mrgreen:


I was talking about the ST version that the guy has logged on his mac. The Amiga version is good as it is.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:02 pm

The sound on youtube is similar to Steem's, except you can hear there's a low-pass filter being applied.
It is not crystal clear, but less noisy than when using the PSG.
I don't see what could add noise here, except a bad amp?

On the other hand, the sound on the Amiga is just horrible. I just checked with WinUAE, same too slow tune. We may add B.A.T to the list of "games better on ST/botched on the Amiga".

Or can we say that B.A.T is B.A.D on the Amiga? At least the intro.

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby farvardin » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:02 pm

I own a MV16 so I could try to record some music from B.A.T. to check if there are some differences with the youtube version. Is the MV16 using a similar technology as the Covox? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covox

About the Amiga version, like for PC, the "hot quarter" misses a special sequence in the ST version (it has been edulcorated: https://youtu.be/MpQhiYzGVdo?t=38m4s)

The PC version seems to use Adlib FM music, I like it much it's really in the mood of the ST version, even though most musics seem to be missing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGEgp_ZoiY

The C64 version is rather strange, the musician took probably too much liberty with the original track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DW2a9FCoaY

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:24 am

Probably they made some mistake when converted title audio track(s) to Amiga (8-bit channels), and that's the reason for slow playback speed.
But I don't blame them - there was no Audacity around in those times :mrgreen:
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:09 am

AtariZoll wrote:Probably they made some mistake when converted title audio track(s) to Amiga (8-bit channels), and that's the reason for slow playback speed.
But I don't blame them - there was no Audacity around in those times :mrgreen:


I know that the conversion was done by Lance Mason, coder at ESP software. It's possible that the music was botched up, it won't be the first time it can be seen on Amiga.....

I have launched the game on my A1200..... the graphics seem to have the "ST palette bug", they are too darkish (i must have a look under maptapper in order to check the color values).
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariFan » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:41 am

Steven Seagal wrote:Hello,
[...] I can't find a dump of the cartridge (stc file). As you know, the cartridge played sound, but also acted as a dongle.
The playing sound part can't be dumped, but maybe the dongle part may, in case there was fancy data to read on the cartridge.
Can somebody help?


I found the cartridge dump on Tonton Bruno's website (see attachment).
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby cb » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:29 am

farvardin wrote:About the Amiga version, like for PC, the "hot quarter" misses a special sequence in the ST version (it has been edulcorated: https://youtu.be/MpQhiYzGVdo?t=38m4s)


Actualy only the original french ST version has no censorship.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:32 pm

AtariFan wrote:I found the cartridge dump on Tonton Bruno's website (see attachment).


Thx but I'm not sure this dump is correct. It returns $FF for the first 64K and $FE for the rest.
Returning $FF at the first addresses tells B.A.T there's no cartridge.
So I made up a fake dump instead. First bytes are 'MV16' so that Steem recognizes the cartridge and doesn't play sounds when it shouldn't!

I upload it for reference (it's useless for now).
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:31 pm

Another cartridge, Replay 16, uses the same system.

http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-st-replay-16_25552.html

But in this case samples apparently are really 16bit.
It's easy to add support for this in Steem now. I'll make another fake dump so that it is properly recognised.
The same cartridge was used to record samples. Emulation support of this is not planned.

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:50 pm

And Steem could also support the Centronics sound cartridge for Wings of Death and Lethal Xcess.
The sound is 8bit, like in STE mode, so it's not really useful, but I was curious about this option.

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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:10 pm

Quality of sound depends not only from how much bits are used in samples, but from analogue part too. Then, if it is SW controlled - via interrupts, there will be jitter, unlike by STE DMA. Or unlike by some emulator playback - where Windows playback may make it accurately timed.
I just wanted to say that STE sound is good solution and in that time nobody used 16-bit samples except some expensive professional cards.
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Re: B.A.T. MV16 cartridge dump

Postby farvardin » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:14 pm

It seems the musics for BAT were made by Olivier Robin:
http://www.atarimania.com/list_games_at ... 3_S_G.html


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