'communication problem with people'

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AtariZoll
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'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:37 am

After I read Thothy's lock on reply for second time, wanted to PM him with some talk about, but then, much better is to put it in public area, especially as I did not hear it for the first time from him. Of course, I must say that I expect some very shallow comments here, as usual, who will say what bad person I'm and like. I can only say that I don't care for shallow opinions. If they can properly argument it, with accurate examples and like, we may talk, otherwise I will simply ignore it.
\communication problem with people' - yes, there is a problem, and that sentence is almost true. Only one word is missing: 'some' .
Actually, that is something about I was thinking more less over my whole life. Here, I will just focus about communication in online forums, in communication about technical, computer related things.
So, thothy said that "just state it once in a polite fashion and then shut up" :mrgreen: I guess 'shut up' is polite. And yes, this is good example where I have communication problem with SOME people. In polite fashion ? No, as I said I was angry. That site is not polite, Hatari team Windows treatment is not polite. They don't appreciate people's time. There are minimal standards when distributing some SW online, or wherever. Not indicating in which Win. version it is tested, on which versions should work is absolute abysmal. So, I communicated in my way further - explained it all. Because that is in some way also Hatari bug, so it was on topic. Then, what right thothy, or npoma. have to say me to stop posting there ? Is it polite ?
Truth is that I would not push it so hard. but some answers, and overall reception of bug report was so bad, that I just needed to remind them some things - who worked on this lot of time, and that there were some really stupid and unexpected problems. But I sustained, and actually went very close to exact bug reason. Instead talking about my need for life and so on ...
In that 'some people' category belong people who feel offended by some critic, some advice in purpose to make it better - then they coming with diverse words: 'aggressive', 'not polite' and like . It is just that in many cases you must yell, that people listen to you.

I just spotted old thread at Atariage, from 2008, with some 'nice' talk with C.J. . That's actually very good thread if you are able to see what really happened. Heavy case of man, with who is impossible to communicate normally. I guess because he was/is used on praising (because his activities in retre scene), and fact is that will just getting offended for any correction of his claims, and more: going in counterattack - like reporting to admin (who normally has no clue about technical issues), demanding ban and like. + there will be always some fans who will jump in on his side, and saying how unpolite I am. Sure, for idiots, who think that you can not be polite and say some critic, correction at once.
SOME people includes category: don't liking critic, corrections. Writing in forums only for some kind of fame - and that latest is very interesting - probably worth for opening separated thread (no, me not today :lol: ) - because I see lot of such right here. Example would be Simbo - he wrote lot of incorrect things, and never accepted corrections, went often very insulting in replies, etc.

Finally, we are from different countries, different habits, mentality and like. English kind of ignorance is not our way. Instead saying some not kind words just skip whole problem ? For what it is good ? i see forums as place where we can exchange our experiences, opinions. In democratic way ?
Now, that's the most hard question probably ? Giving same rights for everyone, regardless from proven knowledge ? Actually, it is first step in my opinion. But that must be 'fine adjusted' - according to persons acting, contribution history, proven knowledge.
Computer science, knowledge is pretty much exact thing. Yet, we have here plenty of discussions complete unnecessary, because all it is already known, clarified. And people like me can lose patience seeing same and same mistakes over and over again.
Some will say now that I think that I know everything, and like. I can only say that if it would be true, I would not progress much in my life. You can and need to learn every day something new. This days, before funeral are not easy days for me. I'm thinking a lot about diverse things. How our society can be better, because i see really lot of bad things on streets, right under my window in park ...
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Zarchos » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:04 am

Oh dear, that reminds me explaining again and again about the Archie not needing (*) copros like blitter and lots of DMA simply because the ARM chip, teaming up with the memory controller, can transfer byte, taking only half a cycle (2 x 1/4 of a cycle, 1/4 to load from memory to register, and 1/4 from register to memory) ...
Good luck ! :cheers:
I still find the ST community as the most friendly, and open minded.
And I just love my ST for being a truely unbelievable machine for its price, and the skills of its coders.
No haters or 'not my beloved Amiga machine' bashers ... just see the number of threads on Amiga boards closed by so called 'moderators' who themselves are part of this silly bashing game.

(*) and anyway that would just not be possible to have a blitter simply because the ARM chip always accesses the memory, there is no 'idle' state as far as memory bus access is concerned, because of the 3 stage pipeline architecture of the ARM chip.
Furthermore by design the ARM chip was created with low latency response to interrupts in mind, so the DMA design isn't necessary.

It is true also the Latin way of expression, I believe, is much more direct and frank than the Anglo Saxon way, and that seems to be a real issue, hurting feelings. It is seen as being rude, when it is not, just the way we also behave in real life too.
That makes things easier, instead of trying to read between the lines.
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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:07 am

AtariZoll wrote:So, thothy said that "just state it once in a polite fashion and then shut up" :mrgreen: I guess 'shut up' is polite. And yes, this is good example where I have communication problem with SOME people. In polite fashion ? No, as I said I was angry. That site is not polite, Hatari team Windows treatment is not polite. They don't appreciate people's time. There are minimal standards when distributing some SW online, or wherever. Not indicating in which Win. version it is tested, on which versions should work is absolute abysmal. So, I communicated in my way further - explained it all. Because that is in some way also Hatari bug, so it was on topic. Then, what right thothy, or npoma. have to say me to stop posting there ? Is it polite?


I think it's obvious that Thomas meant everybody to have understood that the the indicated "antartica.no" auto-build didn't work for you, so you don't need to continue complaining on that particular subject. He could have expressed it more politely, but your insults in the previous message against Christer (who's freely providing great service for other Hatari users) probably annoyed him too much to be nicer.

As to antartica.no, it's an automatic build service, on a Linux server. Services that automatically do a build of every commit in a repository are standard nowadays. One cannot expect such builds to be tested (at all, by anybody). They are builds that are provided *for* testing, not tested builds. Build names containing hashes and consecutive builds having time stamps that are within few days of each are good clues to identify such services.

Those builds are useful for users who are unable (or unwilling) to do their own builds, but want to test whether:
* latest Hatari Mercurial version still has issue they got with a release version
* a given commit fixes an issue they reported with an earlier build

(That kind of service is useful because bug reports against release versions are pretty useless, unless they're easy to reproduce. If not, user needs test whether they happen also with the latest Mercurial version, and whether developer's commit fixes the bug.)

Note that Hatari developers cannot test Windows builds, as none of them has or uses Windows. Only testing for Windows builds is done by the users (like you), and only for Hatari releases users have provided the kind of testing coverage (for Windows versions etc) that you seem to be expecting. That's how it's going to be until somebody volunteers to do such testing for Windows (like Hatari maintainers do for Linux).

If you care about Windows, you can volunteer.

AtariZoll wrote:Truth is that I would not push it so hard. but some answers, and overall reception of bug report was so bad, that I just needed to remind them some things - who worked on this lot of time, and that there were some really stupid and unexpected problems. But I sustained, and actually went very close to exact bug reason. Instead talking about my need for life and so on ...


Although you may wish it, you cannot expect people to drop friends, work & family to immediately verify & debug whatever you've discovered. :-)

Nicolas was just trying to explain why *he* hadn't had time to test it yet. Why did you take it to be a comment about you?

As to Ubuntu problems, Hatari developers don't package Hatari, issues with Hatari packages need to be reported against related distros. In Ubuntu case, to Debian, as Ubuntu seems to take the (not very actively maintained) Debian Hatari package as-is.

(Personally, I would recommend building Hatari yourself from Mercurial. That way you know what you've gotten.)

AtariZoll wrote:In that 'some people' category belong people who feel offended by some critic, some advice in purpose to make it better - then they coming with diverse words: 'aggressive', 'not polite' and like . It is just that in many cases you must yell, that people listen to you.


I think most people who see somebody yelling at public, probably think him/her to be unbalanced. And best way to let them regain their balance, is not to interact with them. If person yells louder, normal people just take larger detour around him/her. Could something similar happen also on internet forums?

If you want people to do something for you, insulting them is not the best strategy to achieve that. Just one insult is enough for receivers to consider whole posting to be insulting instead of informative, and the loudest message received from an insulting post is that the sender is an idiot.

A problem with that is it being so very easy to insult people, by accident. Not insulting is hard work. Removing adjectives and in general reducing & shortening the message to non-personal facts helps.

PS. I wonder whether I'm now considered an idiot^Hsocially inept... :-)

-- "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte."

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby darklight » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:04 am

Just my 2 cents worth here - AtariZoll you tend to write longer posts than usual - very long posts actually. You seem to take a lot of words to say something that could possibly be covered in a much smaller post - which is ok, I understand communication not in your own language can be an issue. Its just that these long posts seem to drive certain threads off topic, or drive them towards your own slant on the topic, which can stifle the original intent of the thread, or even worse, kill the conversation dead.

I understand that this isn't 100% your own fault, but perhaps think about breaking a long post out into a new thread - just like you've done here.
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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby charles » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:38 am

every forum is full of lousy deadbeats harbouring on the will of good people . keep your expectations low when on forums and never lose site of your objective.
its a shame our minds are so susceptible..and that triggers an emotional defence .
wish the best to you ...lets hope this banter materializes into something usefull !
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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:14 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:I think it's obvious that Thomas meant everybody to have understood that the the indicated "antartica.no" auto-build didn't work for you, so you don't need to continue complaining on that particular subject. He could have expressed it more politely, but your insults ...

OK, I try to keep this reply short.
It is not about that it did not work for me. How many times I need to repeat that I'm not only one Win 7 user ? If did not work for me, it did not work for hundreds of others. But you just repeat same and same - for how many people it worked :D Serious programmers don't act like that, Oh, pardon, another insult.
There were 3 things which probably 'insulted' Pomarede and other Hatari people. I put it in quote, because insult is subjective thing - I mean I did not insult, you felt insulted.
First was about low efficiency of code. Yep, it is true. Especially in Win 7, from some reason.
Then was that talk about 'never again DL from so reckless ..." - indeed, more later.
I said that problem is in asking me for doing some tests, while Pomarede could do all it in few minutes. And this is where bad communication 'shined' with all brightness. He did not say before that can not reach sample playback in DM (actually it was absurd, since there is first, right at start door) . He did not say that has no time at moment, or like. Instead it repeated many times that my CPU is weak for TT emulation - what is absolutely wrong.
No, Hatari is weak in Windows, more weak in Win 7 than Win 8 .
So, back to that 'reckless' - you just can not continue same attitude with Windows releases as 10 years before, because things are pretty much different now. Now we have in use basically 4 versions - XP (less and less), 7, 8 and 10. And as may see there are many differences. So, I say again - it is not users who need to test it every time on what it works and how. If you are not able to test, then keep some statistic, publish on site, state there on what it works - that's absolute minimum. If Steven Seagal can do it alone ...

So, basically we have problem here about what is insult. Yep, I insulted you because you felt insulted :D That's not just communication problem, but much worse - it is 'how you dare to say me such thing' , then with all blah about being not polite, communication problems. ' How you dare to say me how I lead my SW distribution, testings etc - it is my thing' - well, that is never your thing 100% .

"Although you may wish it, you cannot expect people to drop friends, work & family to immediately verify & debug whatever you've discovered. :-)" - you just did not read that thread carefully. I did not expect such things. Also, did not expect blatant ignorance of my error reports. I expected better communication and respect - as said, I helped already Hatari devel couple times. I mean, what you said is so big insult, lets face it - especially as nobody asked immediately reaction and fix. As said, and say now last time - just say that will go on it later. Don't say for some bug report that is not valid until you really test it (case of YM sample playback).
Just came to maybe good formulation of what is insult, of course only partially enough: insult is when you state some things to, about some person based on incorrect, false claims - just like that "you cannot expect people to drop friends" - that's your assumption that I expected that. And on top of it is overdramatized with that "drop friends" - I mean, this is so pathetic, lets be real.
So, continuing definition: based on prejudices, incorrectly interpreted actions, words from person, who is subject of 'insult' . Shortly, biased opinion.
Then, insult is even not listening on what other says, writes - and that is so much present in forums.
Insult is taking out something from context and then waving with it in discussion.

I will likely start another thread about new mainstream computer OS-es, new problems with them and related.
My longer talks about problems in Ubuntu were mostly because I'm now in some kind of looking on things in general, thinking about tendencies in this years, where we go, how many bad things happen, and that we even not are aware about many what happen under surface. What means not that I'm pessimist, lot of good, nice things happen, thanks to good people. We just need to be smart.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Rustynutt » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:11 am

Can you imagine, on "other" forums, members get chastised for "reviving" an old thread. Hell, I thought that one of the main points of belonging to a forum :)

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:56 am

Rustynutt wrote:Can you imagine, on "other" forums, members get chastised for "reviving" an old thread. Hell, I thought that one of the main points of belonging to a forum :)

OK, let's see what "chastised" (never heard it before) means ... Got it.
Can you imagine, that thread is 'old' - some 4 days :lol:
I always 'enjoy' when people jumps in without taking even minimal effort to see what about all it is :shrug:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:04 am

ST/fm/e, STacy, Mega ST/e, TT, Falcon, C-Lab MKX... and more music tools.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Frank B » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:31 pm

Surely the purpose of an autobuild is for continuous integration testing? Ie to make sure a patch hasn't broken the build process. If you want a stable release, wait for the proper public release.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:34 pm

darklight wrote:Just my 2 cents worth here - AtariZoll you tend to write longer posts than usual - very long posts actually.
...
I understand that this isn't 100% your own fault, but perhaps think about breaking a long post out into a new thread - just like you've done here.


Agree, splitting things into separate threads helps.

Frank B wrote:Surely the purpose of an autobuild is for continuous integration testing? Ie to make sure a patch hasn't broken the build process. If you want a stable release, wait for the proper public release.


Yes, that's one of the things it's used for (along with checking compiler warning messages from other compiler versions), but builds don't generally break because there aren't that much changes to the (Hatari) build system.

It's more commonly used as a place where people who don't know how to compile sources into binaries, get binaries for latest development versions though. So that they can check whether bugs they encountered are reproducible with latest Mercurial version, and whether potential fixes to those bugs actually fix them.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:00 pm

AtariZoll wrote:It is not about that it did not work for me. How many times I need to repeat that I'm not only one Win 7 user ? If did not work for me, it did not work for hundreds of others. But you just repeat same and same - for how many people it worked :D


You're the first one to report an issue, and as things have worked fine for everybody else, fairly obvious first assumption is that there's some issue specific to your setup.

AtariZoll wrote:Serious programmers don't act like that, Oh, pardon, another insult.


What do you expect us to do about your Windows problem?

-> We don't use or have Windows, so we cannot debug your issue. We can only wait for you to debug it, and provide some advise for that.

AtariZoll wrote:There were 3 things which probably 'insulted' Pomarede and other Hatari people. I put it in quote, because insult is subjective thing - I mean I did not insult, you felt insulted.
First was about low efficiency of code. Yep, it is true. Especially in Win 7, from some reason.


OS specific issues are most likely problems in SDL backend for given OS (there have been lots of them), not in Hatari. You should file those to upstream libSDL bug tracker (https://bugzilla.libsdl.org/) after you've tracked them down. Christer's Hatari cross-build environment SDL library for Windows can then be updated after there's SDL release with the fix.

FYI: Don't expect libSDL to work well on all Windows versions just because it's widely used. LibSDL can ruin performance e.g. through badly implemented display updates (like the SDL1 OSX backend did on Macs), or sound playback. You might even find your Win7 issue already in SDL bug tracker (some issues Hatari had suffered among other programs, have sat years in SDL bug tracker before they got fixed).

AtariZoll wrote:So, back to that 'reckless' - you just can not continue same attitude with Windows releases as 10 years before, because things are pretty much different now. Now we have in use basically 4 versions - XP (less and less), 7, 8 and 10. And as may see there are many differences. So, I say again - it is not users who need to test it every time on what it works and how. If you are not able to test, then keep some statistic, publish on site, state there on what it works - that's absolute minimum. If Steven Seagal can do it alone ...


There's no information to publish for auto-builds. As I stated earlier, auto-builds are *NOT* tested, they are *for* testing.

Before release, we ask Windows & OSX users to test latest auto-builds, and if there are issues, to debug and/or provide fixes, if they can (for OSX there are few users who send fixes, for Windows, you can volunteer).

It's probably a good idea to document in next release what setups people tested Hatari on i.e. which particular Windows & OSX versions "should" work. Or not to work (I think release will be done eventually anyway even if there were Windows issues, if nobody steps up to fix them).

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:09 am

Believe me, I know very well what is having released SW not enough tested. I have about 900 of such :D
As I see, people rather participating in some thread, like recent one here, started by guy who never coded on Atari, but wants to do some demos.
So, they give diverse advice (and myself was one of such), what is fine, of course. Well, sometimes too much advice may confusing people, but my point is that testing is not so easy in many cases. In cases of game adaptations it means practically to play complete game. And that happens sometimes, mostly with quality games. However, as I see, most of games just lie on disks, maybe people try them for short, but barely play intensively. Here to add that I receive sometimes demands for put all adaptations in one big archive, so they can DL it easily. Now I will admit something: main reason for not doing it is exactly lack of thorough testing of adaptations. So 1: not too good idea to put untested stuff in such archive. 2: painful part - does people deserve such effort from my side, since they did not test it enough - bad thing in this is generalization. Because some deserve it indeed. You just can't be good and fair for everyone.

At the moment I do early steps needed for my idea - mixed partitioning for IDE hard disks, CF cards - where will be byte swapped DOS/TOS compatible and pure TOS (AHDI), so not byte swapped (Motorola order) partitions. Purpose is faster work on Atari, while it will be accessible on some PC, MAC with modern OS, of course then only DOS compat. partitions. SInce many people can access only first partition on removable under Windows, that is not big limit. So, why not making rest of it faster on Atari ? And now comes related part: that first step is testing whole concept on diverse modern OS versions.
So, I tested it in Win 7, 8, XP, Ubuntu Linux 17 so far. But it is not enough. I need yet Win 10, and at least some of little older Ubuntu, where there is active AHDI partitioning support (probably 14.04) . I have 5 OS-es installed in my main PC, but I need more, mostly for testing purposes. All it is not big deal today with hard disk capacities, + now is recommended to have SSD for OS(es) + some larger classic hard drive, or better more of each :D
So, I need now to install that older Ubuntu, partially from curiosity - how it will deal with that mixed partitioning. Luckily, I have some spare older hard drives for that.

Back to Hatari: it is large project, there are years of work in it. It is good emulator, with some features not present in any other - Falcon, TT emulation, low level ACSI and IDE emulation. Just it self means that lot of people is interested. We know that most of using Windows. So, I would reconsider whole attitude. Not getting feedback about not working in Win 7 ? There was actually one, in 2.0.0 thread, right before mine. But I guess that Win users just got tired from reading constantly that 'we don't use Windows ...' . I don't use Win 8, XP almost never (only for video capturing, simply because Pinnacle SW for capture card works only on 32-bit XP) , yet, I feel need to test my simple SW on them .
As result of ignoring Win. we see some strange things - claiming that SDL2 is faster. My experience is just opposite.
To finish: yes, user contribution, testings are necessary. But some elementary, basic tests should be done by developers (+volunteers if there are such) - what includes working on most popular OS versions. It's not easy to say, but I will: then you self will respect more own creation :D
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby troed » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:36 pm

Hatari is open source. We'd love to have someone work on Windows. No current developer does.

(The macOS native UI is wonderful, for example. If anyone wanted to make one for Windows it would be very welcome)

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:12 am

AtariZoll wrote:So 1: not too good idea to put untested stuff in such archive.


As I explained earlier, that's the whole point of auto-builds. It's a service from one Hatari user to other Hatari users, to help them help testing Hatari.

Alternative is that we don't provide Windows binaries (until somebody steps up to maintain & regularly test Hatari on Windows). Would that be better?

AtariZoll wrote:Win. we see some strange things - claiming that SDL2 is faster. My experience is just opposite.


On the display side, Hatari uses SDL only to create window/framebuffer, and to blit it on screen.

Because SDL2 uses GPU for scaling the framebuffer (unlike SDL1 did), that part should be faster than SDL1, especially for larger resolutions (unless there's something funky in your GPU setup).

On top of this, display code in OSX backend for SDL1 was really inefficient which caused Hatari to be performance-wise quite slow on OSX. That extra problem went away with the update to SDL2 and Hatari was clearly faster on OSX. Windows users hadn't complained about extra slowdown, so it was apparently specific to OSX backend in SDL1.

Now, it wasn't clear to me from your mails whether you were comparing apples-to-apples, or applejam-to-teddybear. But I think it was latter. You didn't test Hatari builds where you switched just SDL version, and do a separate test for Hatari 2.0 release & latest Mercurial version with the same SDL version, so that you could tell whether the issue was SDL version change (or other Hatari updates since 2.0).

AtariZoll wrote:Just it self means that lot of people is interested. We know that most of using Windows. So, I would reconsider whole attitude. Not getting feedback about not working in Win 7 ? There was actually one, in 2.0.0 thread, right before mine. But I guess that Win users just got tired from reading constantly that 'we don't use Windows ...'


I think Windows is fine as OS and MicroSoft isn't worse than any other large SW company. For the languages MicroSoft supports, Windows is better translated than corresponding Linux versions which is important for people who don't understand English. It has a lot more games available than other desktop OSes, and Visual Studio is supposedly fine development environment. I think it's cool people use Hatari also on Windows.

HOWEVER, I hate *using* Windows *myself*. I have to use Windows occasionally at work, but at least I'm payed to do that.

So... I don't ask you to come to clean my drains for free. Why do you repeatedly ask me (and other Hatari developers) to spend our precious free time with something (that at least I) intensely dislike to do, instead of doing yourself what you consider so important?

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:39 am

AtariZoll wrote:Not getting feedback about not working in Win 7 ? There was actually one, in 2.0.0 thread, right before mine.


If you refer to:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=30676&start=50#p332676

"amilo3438" clearly says its on XP, not on Win7.

SDL2 was first released 3 years after mainstream support for XP had stopped and it's been now over 3 years since XP was EOL'ed completely by MicroSoft.

I don't think anybody should be surprised if latest SDL2 version autobuilds don't work on XP. While SDL2 initially supported XP, specific builds of SDL2 might not work in very old machines if they e.g. don't support SSE. For such obsolete HW/SW combo it's probably better that people build Hatari themselves, or just use the release version.

(For older / less powerful machines latest Hatari versions Falcon, maybe even TT emulation can be too demanding. ST & STE emulation should still be fine.)

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Dal » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:20 am

I’ve been reading this thread with interest and wanted to see how it played out a little before responding. The way I see it, the Hatari team simply do not have anyone looking at Windows builds beyond making binaries available.

That’s their decision based on what they get out of writing this stuff for free for us all to enjoy - thanks by the way, I love using Hatari when I get the chance.

Actually, it sounds like the Hatari Dev team are crying out for a seasoned developer who really understands Windows and its nuances to debug some of this stuff and make changes to the code if it’s deemed necessary to do so. It is open source, after all.

AtariZoll - it sounds like you might be the best person to investigate this further. The fact the core developers are still questioning Windows SDL compatibility probably means more detailed testing is required using different version combinations and seeing how your issue is affected. If you still think it’s something to do with the Hatari source itself, why not grab the code and have a go at trying to locate the problem (being a developer yourself?). At the very least, you should be completely subservient to their requests for more testing - you have the equipment and knowledge to do this while the Hatari team have the inside-out knowledge of their own code to help you get to the cause.

You’ll get to an answer between you if you work together.
Mega"SST" 12, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:24 am

Eero: I forgot to reply on this: "You're the first one to report an issue, and as things have worked fine for everybody else, fairly obvious first assumption is that there's some issue specific to your setup."
I think that here you are seriously wrong. How you know that worked for everybody else ? I can tell only that my Win 7 is good, it is not old - some 6 months, HW is OK, not old. All SW what is claimed that work on it works.

Yes, I did lot of diverse tests, but you again come with ridiculous assumption (well, and 'insulting' too) - that I did not compare speeds (better said CPU load) with same Hatari versions. Of course I talked about worse CPU load of that SDL2 build in same OS, on same HW, same machine, so with everything same, than CPU load with 'official', more compatible SDL1 version (which on top of all has 60% shorter exec. file).
I noticed that older builds have significantly lower CPU load, especially in TT emulation - and that was expected since CPU emul. code is changed.

Basically, only thing what I did wrong is that did not check CPU load in early tests, just because I did not expect that it will be so high with TT emul. And obviously CPU emul. carries most of it. However, it was much better in Win 8, so there are actually some complicated issues yet, and I think that no one has clue what can be the exact reason.

And something what you probably will consider as waste of time: what I said that should test, and write on DL pages for potential users - so on what OS versions it works is not enough now. In case of WIn, it is very common to state what service pack need to be installed on which Win version too. Because it may contain necessary libraries for instance. Linux distros are not far from that, except that user often has no clue about done updates.
Now, WIn10 is total mess with updates, and I stopped to use it - now even will remove it, because it stopped to work normally, for what I blame some of it's automatic (and long) updates.

You talking about not liking to use Windows, so why I ask you to use it. That's not about using WIndows - well that's not the point - point is that you need to make your SW usable for people, as much possible. You published it because that. That needs some extra effort. That's what I do - testing on whatever I can. If I did not test on something, I will not put on site that it works on it. You may see that I have some table with game adaptations, what is now little obsolete, since all it works now fine with TOS 2.06 (over many years), but there is TT, Falcon work too specified. And guess what - I hate to do tests on those 2 machines. Still, I spend my 'precious' time on it, because that's the right thing toward Atari users. Furthermore, I'm who can not only test, but can find the cause for not working, and correct. I come not with your text: "who wants to play it on TT, Falcon - test it, fix it self" .
Do you realize how it even sounds bad to ask users to do so complicated things ? As we may see, even noticing problem because high CPU load is not easy. And not to blame Windows, M$ for that. It is same, if not worse with SW on Ataris - diverse TOS versions, TT, Falcon compatibilty, media on which it is stored problems. You need to test many aspects before can say for sure is some SW fail on Atari because TOS version or something else.

Just to explain why I can not contribute in Hatari devel: too busy with other Atari related things, if not must busy one. My C knowledge is low, and it will be not better. Even if I would be much better with C and all other needed for that task - that would mean abandoning my other projects, which now waiting some better times, more free time and energy. Actually, that other activity did lead to discovering of that YM sample playback bug.
The real question is that how it stayed unreported over 4 years ? Is it possible that no one tried Dungeon Master in Hatari, TT emulation ? Maybe. but I know that I played it on real TT, Falcon, and it was much better on them, than on ST(E), because faster CPU. That game really benefits from that. In forums is often stated that lot of games is better on them. And now, there is plenty of them using YM sample playback. And now, imagine that nobody encountered in 4 ++ years bad sample playback in TT emulation ? That's just so unlikely, like that some complexer SW will work from first try flawlessly.
No, that's same case as about what I wrote at start of this reply - you assuming that it was OK, because nobody reported problems. Well, I say that it is not reported because guess what - will use your word - people 'dislike' to write bug, error reports. Especially for Hatari - will not repeat said about why ...
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby mikro » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:32 am

AtariZoll wrote:people 'dislike' to write bug, error reports. Especially for Hatari - will not repeat said about why ...

Hm, so when others generalise, they are idiots. If you generalise, it's your infinite wisdom. I for one like to report bugs to the Hatari team because they have always listened and many times implemented what I was asking for in matter of *hours*.

True, I didn't call them idiots. Maybe then I would dislike reporting bugs. ;-)

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:43 am

I see, some were busy during night. I did not notice Dal's reply. Indeed, it would be nice if I could join in effort and work on Hatari development. Actually, in other thread I talked about idea of doing special Win GUI - and it appears that there is such for MAC OSX (if remember correctly). Then, I explained in my previous post (but not only there) why it is not really possible. I can add on it that I can be also who could ask for contribution. I could talk too about my life, free time etc . Is the main issue, point really missing person for Windows versions, builds ? Was talk about smaller motivation in case of Win. v., because there are other Atari emulators for Win. Then, I did some contribution, what was good for all Hatari platform versions. But that needs lot of time in going thru long source files, and I did not compile it self. Not because compiling would be so hard, just because I'm short with time. For instance, you can now compile original Steem 3.2 (with smaller changes) really fast, in minute - but only if you install same compiler + some other tools, they used.
That's lucky case. Often, SW what other using, used works not on your config.

I don't say that automated compiles are useless. Just talked about need to clarify where those builds should work, on what is tested, etc. That will avoid unnecessary discussions about 'problematic setup's and like.

To reply to my old friend Mikro, who now has hard time seeing how bad persona I became :D :
I'm sure, you read all written about whole issue - so sure as that Moon is square :mrgreen:
My reply was partially sarcastic. I mean, what talk is that some programmer does not test in Windows because 'dislikes' it ? I heard in my life zillion bad words about Windows, probably most of it was told by myself :lol: In this forum we have many people disliking Windows. That simple does not changes fact that it does it's job for ... instead some big number, just this: majority of computer users. Is it good, is that company always fair, etc... that's way bigger than whole this hobby computing. I can say only that Linux is not saint. Many distros went commercial way, actually most popular ones like Red Hat, Mandrake/Mandriva ... So, am I who generalizes ? Surely no - you, Mikro are that kind. Fact is that reporting that it works not or has some issues in user's Win. always resulted in same answer - in meaning 'we don't like Win, we don't care much about Win v.' And we are at chicken-egg classic dilemma.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:32 pm

AtariZoll wrote:I think that here you are seriously wrong. How you know that worked for everybody else ?


In case it wasn't obvious, everybody else who has reported to have tested Hatari Windows version, has told it to work fine.

AtariZoll wrote:Yes, I did lot of diverse tests, but you again come with ridiculous assumption (well, and 'insulting' too) - that I did not compare speeds (better said CPU load) with same Hatari versions. Of course I talked about worse CPU load of that SDL2 build in same OS, on same HW, same machine, so with everything same, than CPU load with 'official', more compatible SDL1 version (which on top of all has 60% shorter exec. file).


Maybe I wasn't clear enough. You just mentioned above that you haven't built Hatari yourself for Windows (which was what I had assumed).

AFAIK we don't provide SDL1 & SDL2 binaries of the same Hatari version (older versions use SDL1 and newer SDL2). However, test data from such binaries is the information needed to determine whether your Windows issue is Hatari or SDL specific.

And to debug the issue further, it's also better that you do have the capability & time to build Hatari Windows version. Or you wait until somebody volunteers to to maintain Hatari for Windows (like we have waited for the past ~10 years).

AtariZoll wrote:Do you realize how it even sounds bad to ask users to do so complicated things ?


If user doesn't provide enough information, there are two alternatives:
a) Ignore user
b) Ask for more information

It seems that you would prefer option a), because you don't have time for option b). This is fine.

(If issue is something that we can replicate on Linux, much less information is needed.)


Btw. Here's a quote from a well respected, *paid* Linux kernel maintainer on similar subject:

Code: Select all

> I think an important difference is who discovers the bug and how they can react to it.

Yes. So much yes! If the reporter is polite and helpful, they get helped. If the reported is obnoxious and demanding, they get ignored. If the reporter is willing to perform a git-bisect, you give them step by step instructions and help them through it. If the reporter demands a fix, you give them a quote and request payment in advance (or just ignore them).


I.e. some level of technical expertise with the tooling in given project, and quite a bit of time is often required from the bug reporters if they expect something to happen in response to their reports.


AtariZoll wrote:In this forum we have many people disliking Windows. That simple does not changes fact that it does it's job for ... instead some big number, just this: majority of computer users.


I think your information is obsolete.

Linux is used on 40% of the computers (>2 billion devices), Windows on 37% according to 2017 statistics on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_sha ... ng_systems

This is mostly because there are so many Android phones, whereas Windows is used only on desktop versions of computers. Linux has majority OS usage share also on supercomputers, servers, probably also on things like smart TVs, and maybe in next decade also in cars.

PS. Hatari derivative for Android is called Hataroid: https://sites.google.com/site/hataroid/help

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:47 am

OK, let's see that OS usage statistic. What you linked appeared to me as second with google search.
You took your %-ages from kernel usage table, what is honestly pretty much unclear. Just above it is more interesting (for Hatari usage indeed) other table, "Web clients' OS family statistics" - and where Linux disappeared ? Under 1% !
Something is very wrong in your reasoning (sorry, maybe I say it too much, but ...)
So, who are potential and actual users of Hatari ? WEB servers or people at their home ? Actually, I'm not sure what that "online usage means" - probably WEB traffic. So, you did not say anything new. We know that Linux is used a lot as WEB server.
:shrug:

I expected more than 1% for Linux in home usage. Even if we exclude Android, it is still under 2%, while Windows then is some 70% !
And yes, I can say that it matches what I see around, with my own eyes. I don't know anyone here who using Linux on PC. Actually, I knew personally only 1 guy, in other place, ~20 years ago. We even worked some things with Linux together. Considering usage of OS-es in institutions, workplaces - I see 100% Windows everywhere. In libraries, in government offices, shops, etc. Maybe we here in East EU are behind advanced West in this things, maybe corruption and greedy M$ stays behind it. Still, no way that Linux is much more used on West than here. Inertia is big power. Like in case of google. We, lazy users made it now practically exclusive search engine on WEB, and made them probably more reach than M$ . I used diverse search sites around 2000, and google gradually took monopoly. They are last to blame for it, because they did very good job. It is just that monopoly is not good for community.
What may be is that %-age of Linux users among Atari people is much higher than that 2% . But that's absolutely not typical. It is just because many were and are still anti M$ .
So, I would say that %-age of people who may be interested for Hatari , and uses Linux is still lower than %-age of Windows users. And yes, so is in my fresh poll. Maybe to add that poll indicator is not accurate, since includes only forum members, active visitors. We don't know are other Hatari potential users so anti-M$ oriented.

I have installed Hataroid. Nice peace of SW. Indeed, the hard part was UI. I think that despite all, and diverse joystick input modes, it is still very hard to play some game on it. Probably it will be better by time. For some serious work tablet or smartphone is just not good, at least not without keyboard and mice. But then it isn't mobile, even less than some note/netbook.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:02 pm

How many of the people around you have Android phone (i.e. Linux based OS) instead of Windows phone?

While traditional Linux desktop distros are indeed around ~1% of OS usage (and unlikely to never gain more), Android also uses Linux, as does ChromeOS. And as I stated earlier, Android's OS usage share is larger than Windows'.

While I'm not that fond of Android or ChromeOS, because they're more for consuming than creating things, they're still Linux, and the core of them is available as Open Source. I could actually consider getting something with Android, while I don't see anything that I would want to do with desktop Windows (if I need something for playing games, I'd buy a console).

That makes Android more interesting target for Hatari to me, than Windows. I won't look into it myself until I do have something with Android though, but I'm interested to review patches to support that.

As to "online usage", that's about Web browser usage. That's the only (semi-)reliable way to measure actual operating system usage, because sales numbers don't tell how long people use given device / OS. With Android having the largest "online usage" share, it should be clear that it wasn't about www-servers, but www-clients...

Windows is more visible, but everywhere else than on desktop (phones, servers, cloud, consoles) MicroSoft has pretty much lost the battle to be the largest. You might not see it, but Linux is used in almost everything, I'd bet that you have multiple devices in your home with Linux. Windows has never been strong on embedded side, there Linux is eating share from other proprietary OSes instead (many of them real-time, but with faster chips and networking needed for everything, Linux has become more viable).

PS. I was sad to see that MicroSoft dropped their Phone business. I knew several people who had used Lumias & were happy with them, and I knew few former colleagues who were involved in their development. Phone industry really would have needed a 3rd alternative.

PPS. I've never understood how Windows with its 100x larger *desktop* market share never could produce a single developer who would be interested / volunteer to maintain Hatari for Windows. For me, that's a strong indicator that Windows is a niche operating system. ;-)

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:48 pm

Well, as usual everyone coming with arguments what will prove his right. Unfortunately, some are just forced often.
Android is Linux ? I don't think so. It may be Linux based. but user interface is totally different. Will not say more - just that is nothing alike for user as Linux. And because using some emulator like Hataroid on it is very hard, that is just not good target platform for Hatari. It may be handy in some cases, but serious usage on it ? No way. Even WEB browsing is pain on some tablet in compare to desktop or notebook.
There is no Android at all in that table where Linux is 40 % and Win 36% - of course. That's server usage. And we knew it already, as said. Actually, that's what I would use as WEB server - Linux, because it is better for sure in it.
Then, maybe browser usage on Android is more just because you need 3x more time on it to do same as on desktop computer :lol:
Gaming rather on console than Windows ? That is again something subjective. Lot of people will not spend money on console from diverse reasons. SW for Win is cheaper, you can do things what are barely possible with console - cheats, chatting in online games etc.
In my home is only tablet and smartphone with - Android. Somehow nobody calls it Linux. Thats same as calling old WIndows DOS - because is on top of DOS. Or calling AES GemDOS .
PPS: people are lazy. That's why Windows is popular. Everyone using it, so I will too - first step. Then, gaming is very important. SW support - still lot of it only on WIndows. In my case, for Atari retro computing most important SW - Steem Debugger was never ported to Linux. There is text on their site about it - that is huge work, and maybe once in future ... UI, GUI is what should be redesigned for Llnux v. Now, Steem is open src, and yet nobody of so great Linux users, programmers went in making Linux version of it ... Shall we continue this debate, or doing something smarter ?
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: 'communication problem with people'

Postby Frank B » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:53 am

There are two billion active android devices out there and one billion iOS devices. Windows desktop is going the way of windows phone. It can't compete on cost with a cheap tablet for basic user needs. EG facebook, ebay etc etc. I give it five years to drop off the face of the earth. There's a good reason Intel want out and Microsoft are going all in on cloud services. A good tablet port of Hatari is far more interesting than windows. At least for me :)


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