The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby ICS » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:53 am

I guess we can finally say, that the Kickstarter campaign which was supposed to start for Volume 2 today will fail.
Because nobody out there seemed to liked the book. That saves me $60 I guess...

OK, now to be serious: You can never satisfy everyone.
No matter if its a book, a new CPU, a new dildo or a burger.
Someone, somewhere will always complain about something.

You didn't like the book?
Don't buy Volume 2.
Buy something for your girlfriend instead and have a nice day.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:15 am

FedePede04 wrote:Hi Gryzor.
i agree with you on this matter.


Thanks man...

Interesting thing is, I had discussed this before, privately, and some people did agree with me; ever since posting this here, some even contacted me to discuss it and they also agree, but some of them are hesitant to come forward in case they are branded as negativists (sic) or whatever. A real shame.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby distantminds » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:44 am

Personally, I enjoyed the book. It's very well executed in terms of presentation and quality of the physical product. The narrative - at first I found it very odd to be quite honest, but I warmed to it - gonzo meets scene poetry :D

My favourite bit was the piece on the Megadeth font. Personally i could have read a whole chapter on this font and would have loved to have seen the different iterations of the font that the author alludes to - a whole book on it even ;)

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:56 am

distantminds wrote: gonzo meets scene poetry :D


I loled :D

My favourite bit was the piece on the Megadeth font.


Yeah, that was a nice thing to cover indeed and it made me (re)realise its importance...
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby FedePede04 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:59 am

Gryzor wrote:
FedePede04 wrote:Hi Gryzor.
i agree with you on this matter.


Thanks man...

Interesting thing is, I had discussed this before, privately, and some people did agree with me; ever since posting this here, some even contacted me to discuss it and they also agree, but some of them are hesitant to come forward in case they are branded as negativists (sic) or whatever. A real shame.


hi you are welcome. :cheers:
the same here i also did not want discuss it here, so i was also about to send you a PM :lol:

i will just like to say that i have not read the book, so it is not what i am comment on,
it is about people not give negative/constitutive feedback or feedback at all.

i have seen many people come to this forum with good ideas, or maybe a program, people don't even take the time, to try it or to encouraging people to continue there work...and it does not take long before those people are going again.

i have also seen it with my own programs, i can see that hundreds of people have downloaded my programs, but only very few have seen me feedback.
sometime when working on the program, i find some obvious mistakes, and wonder why nobody has told me about them, or said that the programs stinks.. but nothing...
One thing is for sure, it kills the desire to make something new for the community.

btw i have a little advice to you... BEWARE..., it's like stabbing your hand in a wasp nest, you will wake up the wrath of the forum, and all the people here, that normally can't spent a moment helping people, giving feedback, say hello to new members, ect. will come and tell you how wrong you are... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:12 am

FedePede04 wrote:
hi you are welcome. :cheers:
the same here i also did not want discuss it here, so i was also about to send you a PM :lol:


I know the feeling :D If nothing else, because I share it; I'm always hesitant and, more often than not, prefer to say nothing, so it's not like it was easy for me to do it publicly, either.

FedePede04 wrote:i will just like to say that i have not read the book, so it is not what i am comment on,
it is about people not give negative/constitutive feedback or feedback at all.


...and that was the essence of my post, but (predictably so) people felt it was just about this book and liking/not liking it.

FedePede04 wrote:i have also seen it with my own programs, i can see that hundreds of people have downloaded my programs, but only very few have seen me feedback.


I think it cuts both ways - when a program is free people will just use it as it is and not care about giving feedback; whereas when something in the scene is not free, like here, people will not give feedback out of the worry of appearing negative and preventing further development.

FedePede04 wrote:btw i have a little advice to you... BEWARE..., it's like stabbing your hand in a wasp nest, you will wake up the wrath of the forum, and all the people here, that normally can't spent a moment helping people, giving feedback, say hello to new members, ect. will come and tell you how wrong you are... :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yeah, I know. I took a really deep breath before posting it, fully expecting the comments it got up to now.

Interesting thing: I'll also be posting this on CPCWiki, which I run. It'll be nice to compare what happens - I think the discussion will be different; for some reason, whereas the CPC and the ST scenes are quite alike, people over there are not afraid of giving feedback openly; there have even been cases where entire projects had been outed and condemned universally (when money is involved).

Just visited your page, interesting programs :) Might have a go at them!
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby FedePede04 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:25 am

please don't download the program on my site, they are so old.....
the YM player / Editor on the forum is the newest version, maybe i should upload a new version of ST-Paint, to this forum.

or please let me know if you want one of the programs and i send you the newest version.

please share a link to the CPC forum so I/we can follow the debate :)
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:46 am

ICS wrote:I guess we can finally say, that the Kickstarter campaign which was supposed to start for Volume 2 today will fail.
Because nobody out there seemed to liked the book. That saves me $60 I guess...


Everyone can draw their own conclusions and shape their own expectations based on available data. I was very excited when the project took off (in my excitement I got two copies :D ), but the available data changed; and, even though I'm negatively inclined, I may still back the second volume, just hoping. Reviews are data - have always been since time immemorial, I would guess. It's not an online thing.

ICS wrote:OK, now to be serious: You can never satisfy everyone.


Of course.

ICS wrote:You didn't like the book?
Don't buy Volume 2.
Buy something for your girlfriend instead and have a nice day.


And not express your opinion, then?
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Atarieterno » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:57 am

FedePede04: Unfortunately the people find more time to criticize an opinion than to say a simple "Thank you" when you provide a program, manual or any other utility. It is part of the human genome. Do not think about it, enjoy your power to bring something positive to the Atari scene, that can not be done by anyone.


Gryzor: Moving away from the specific subject of the book, I would like to say that I applaud your courage to freely express your opinion, in a world where the lie and hypocrisy (or dictatorship) of "the politically correct" is the currency in use. If you ever need a teacher to "swim countercurrent", defender of lost causes or bettor for the loser horse: call me, I am a true master!

Regarding the book: I did not buy it, a long time ago I asked the author about the possibility of a Spanish edition and I did not like his answer. Other books have relied on the second most spoken language in the world (Spanish), although that means sharing benefits with the publisher who is responsible for the translation:

http://www.normaeditorial.com/ficha/978 ... -de-atari/

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:15 am

Thanks for sticking to the essence of my post... which is why I didn't post the review here. Much appreciated!
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby keops » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 am

In any case, for someone writing harsh reviews and harsh criticism, you don't seem to handle very well reviews and criticism yourself when it comes to your own work ;)

You asked us what we thought about your reviews, we told you.

My post was about the scene's reaction to bad products

You have to accept that not everybody thinks they are bad products and you have to accept that you don't hold the universal truth. A lot of sceners and Atari users I know enjoyed those books and thought it was worth their time and money, despite the obvious flaws.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:38 am

Jesus.

What is "my own work"? And NO, I didn't ask "what you thought about my reviews". It's unbelievable how you keep saying that. Wanna discuss my review? Go on Goodreads, where it is, and comment on it! The issue here is NOT whether I liked it or not, what is it so hard about that to understand?

And, again with the "universal truth". OF COURSE some people are going to like it. Of course some don't think they are bad products. THAT. IS NOT. THE ISSUE.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby keops » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:04 am

The other question was answered as well: I'm OK with imperfect work especially when it's about such a niche subject and I don't consider it as a cash-grabbing exercise.

I doubt Marco will buy a new car with a book that sold 600+ copies. This work is obviously the work of someone who is passionate. I'm glad he tried, despite the flaws, and I'm glad he is working on another one, that probably won't be perfect either.

I don't have the feeling I got ripped off, I don't have the feeling I wasted money and I don't have the feeling that people should not do stuff because they are afraid not to do it right.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:19 am

Ok, you're ok with imperfect work and you don't consider this as a cash-brabbing exercise (neither do I). Still off topic.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby FedePede04 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:15 pm

Atarieterno wrote:FedePede04: Unfortunately the people find more time to criticize an opinion than to say a simple "Thank you" when you provide a program, manual or any other utility. It is part of the human genome. Do not think about it, enjoy your power to bring something positive to the Atari scene, that can not be done by anyone.


Thx :cheers:
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby mikro » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:17 pm

Gryzor, you're trying so hard that you have managed to get lost in your own arguments. ;-)

You have entered the discussion about people not expressing true opinions about bad products. Then some people tell you that maybe it's because they don't consider them as bad products and are happy with them as they are, given the circumstances. And while, at least judging from this thread, the numbers of happy/sad fellas seem to be pretty equal, you still insist this is a major problem for the whole community.

I'm sorry but to me this looks like purely your (and your "support group") problem -- if you have problem writing a negative review, it's your problem. If you think some product is bad and can't convince others, it's your problem. If you offer a feedback to someone and that someone ignores you and you find it upsetting, it's still your problem. Not the community's.

Yes, I know, you do this to improve the quality of the products but as you can see from this very short simulation, your attitude isn't exactly... something at least I personally would consider as constructive and yes, I would perhaps ignore your feedback as well.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:28 pm

Thanks for those comments, mikro.

I'll disagree in that no, the opposing argument was not that these are not bad products, but merely that just because these products exist I should be thankful. Of course there's going to be people who like this or that or everything or nothing. But even the "pretty equal" you mention, is already a big enough percentage, not taking into account that for reasons discussed, many people with negative opinions do not come forward.

And (sigh... again, for the umpteenth time) I couldn't care less about convincing others this is a bad product. I'm pulling my own hair here going in circles. Not talking about that!!!

However, offering feedback to someone who is supposed to offer something to the community and that someone ignoring the feedback, is NOT a community issue? Pardon me, I hadn't realised a community is a one-to-many, one-way kind of relationship :D

For your last sentence, maybe I should put it in a song, but I'm a lousy songwriter and I don't have a microphone right now, so I'll just repeat it ad nauseam: this is not about my feedback or you ignoring/embracing it.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Atarieterno » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:30 pm

Peace, as the hippies would say.
A forum is a place to share opinions, where "discuss" positively, where to learn, where to maintain a hobby ... Yes, here also "fights" occasionally and I am not the next Nobel Peace Prize.
But I do not see it as a personal problem, a person who loves the retro world has expressed his opinion about a product related to that world, which is also within the Atari theme, has expressed his opinion according to his feelings because he is a person and not a robot or a mathematical expression (objectivity is always subjective, it is reality). As always happens your opinion can be accepted or be contrary to others, but it is your opinion within a forum and also within the Atari theme; it does not deserve to be criticized for it.
I have seen worse things in this forum of Atari and few people have torn their garments.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby keops » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:34 pm

Gryzor: Maybe you should have someone proofread your posts to make sure people understand what you are writing, since obviously most of us missed the point. Then that person could take care of Marco's next book ;)

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby FedePede04 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:44 pm

keops wrote:Gryzor: Maybe you should have someone proofread your posts to make sure people understand what you are writing, since obviously most of us missed the point. Then that person could take care of Marco's next book ;)


:roll:
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby trecool » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:49 pm

keops you have two broken links at your signature (changing the subject)

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby keops » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:55 pm

Trecool: thank you, looks like good old planet-d is down again. Using good old Pouets instead then.

That was a great example of community work with proofreading ;)

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby mikro » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:08 pm

Keops :D

But all right, let's be all nice and friendly and constructive. The real irony here is that I really get what Gryzor is trying to say and I'm even tempted to say that I agree it's a problem. So now I'll try to imitate Gryzor with really lousy English but a subtle change of wording, just to prove my point:

Hi guys,

recently I have bought two Atari related books. I must say, perhaps I'm such a hardcore Atari fan, I didn't find a lot of new information there but each one of them had some things which really made the purchase worth it. However, I'm struggling with a problem -- I'd like to suggest some improvements to the authors yet I'm failing to do so properly because they don't seem to respond to my feedback. How do you deal with situations like that?

I don't want to hurt their feelings, especially when I realise how much time and effort they put into this but I'd like to at least try to make sure that next editions would be much better in this area.

...

And then perhaps this whole discussion would turn into something CONSTRUCTIVE. But creating a thread where first sentences are nothing else than an essay how awful the books are... yeah, sure, that always works.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby trecool » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:10 pm

Come on this is not nice...

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:04 pm

The "first sentences" have nothing to do with addressing those specific books and if you think they're an "essay how awful the books are", let's read them again:

Reason I’m writing this (or rather, the occasion) is a discussion I had last night with Marco A. Breddin, writer of The Atari ST and the Creative People, on Twitter.

This is not about this book specifically, but about a situation I feel has formed around productions in the retro scene in the last few years. Namely, judging new releases with increasingly rose-tinted glasses and not providing honest feedback to creators.

The past few years have seen a multitude of releases in hardware, software or print. Some are awesome (for instance the Commodore Story, or the Sensible book), some are decidedly mediocre (like a certain author who put out a series of books within a few short months from KickStarter to delivery, so hastily put together they even contained MobyGames screenshots), to downright awful (Atari, Inc: Business is Fun).

Now, I’m one of those who will buy almost everything, even in case where I know I’ll regret it. However, when I regret it, especially when the creator has obviously put in tons of work into his opus, I’m very hesitant in reviewing it negatively.


So, spin it any way you like, but at least please, do address what I say. If I wanted to write an essay on how awful they were* I'd just copy my reviews here.

Thanks for keeping it calm tho :)
T

PS no, I only found Atari, Inc. awful. I wanted to love The Creative People, I disliked it, but despite what I think are very severe faults, I do acknowledge its good sides, too. I don't think my review could have been more balanced.
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