The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

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keops
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby keops » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:39 pm

I was pulling your leg with my last message by the way.

Just out of cursioty, who were you talking about? Chris Wilkins? I never read any of this books but I noticed the numerous kickstarters and all.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:01 pm

keops wrote:I was pulling your leg with my last message by the way.


Sorry mate, I apologise.

keops wrote:Just out of cursioty, who were you talking about? Chris Wilkins? I never read any of this books but I noticed the numerous kickstarters and all.


Yup; didn't mention it because it was neither here nor there, but indeed. I have several of his titles, just because I'm a sucker and keep buying things in the hope they'll get better :D But I didn't review them, for the very same reasons I've pointed out.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Marakatti » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:08 pm

I have to say i liked Marco's book very much.

Why? Because it was the first "big" Atari ST book. Because the tiny Atari-scene showed we can do our own books when leading retrobookpublishers don't have the guts to invest on us. Because it was a real nostalgiatrip to my youth when i watched those and many other demos in the dark room... night after night... night after night.

No, i couldn't code. No, i coudn't compose, barely managed to draw some logos which was fun. But oh boy i enjoyed watching the witchcraft that appeared on my CM8833 screen. How on earth they managed to get ST to do THAT! This should only run on Amiga! - And now decades later i got to know the stories behind them, and to read the Thalion story was fascinating. And yes, it still gives me chills.

Sure there were some typos, some German magazine quotes were not translated. I actually thought it was a design choice, not an error :D And yes, the foreword was not for me. Even if i (might) understand it's purpose to give a philosophical or scientific view at the subject. That's the only part of the book i skipped after two pages of reading.

But the rest was just like using an ST. It gives you good vibes and memories. At least for someone like me who doesn't usually read books (i had enough of them at school) it offered just what i paid for. And will happily support these volumes as long as they are published.

I think the fact that less pages i had left to read, more hungry i was for more. I could have read the whole story to this very Atari scene year with that quality if it was already been written. And that's the best thing any book of this kind can offer. Hunger for more.

I understand it's not for everyone, if you don't love demos you probably find it boring. I wouldn't bother to read a book about showeling the ditch no matter how professionally someone could write it...
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby troed » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:43 am

So I'm one of the authors of the book, as in, I wrote a few pages as a guest section. I can thus speak with confidence about one thing that I did find curious - Marco editing my English (I'm not a native speaker, but I'm easily at expert level) and changing around sentences and grammar. HOWEVER - which goes to the point that's talked about here - this is a direct quote from Marco during our back'n'forth on that: "If you find textual errors, please correct it on-the-fly and send me the doc back". The edits he made were for layout reasons, production reasons and yes, some simply because they were in his own style.

I was asked to proof read all the changes, all the new informations he researched (on the technicalities within my area of expertise) etc. Trying to claim that Marco isn't aware that the English isn't up to native level or that he would actively steer away from help just shows ignorance on the part of the OP.

Don't be ignorant, and don't put down the effort by others based in your own ignorance.

(And it's indeed laughable in this context that the OP seems unable to take in critique himself .. )

/Troed

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby FedePede04 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:50 am

hi troed
my English is not up to expert level, so please that do you mean here "OP" :D
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sometime my English is a little weird, Google translate is my best friend :)

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby troed » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:53 am

FedePede04 wrote:hi troed
my English is not up to expert level, so please that do you mean here "OP" :D


OP = Original poster, thread starter.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:58 am

troed wrote:Trying to claim that Marco isn't aware that the English isn't up to native level or that he would actively steer away from help just shows ignorance on the part of the OP.

/Troed


This sentence doesn't even make sense. Did I claim that "Marco isn't aware that the English isn't up to native level"??? Did I say "he would actively steer away from help"?

Please, do get a grip.

Where exactly does my ignorance lie? In that I believe that the result is sub-par? How is that ignorance? Why would I care what transpired between you two or others? I care about the finished product, and what's more (here we go again) about the whole retro scene attitude.
Last edited by Gryzor on Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby FedePede04 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:59 am

Ok thanks :thumbs:
troed wrote:
FedePede04 wrote:hi troed
my English is not up to expert level, so please that do you mean here "OP" :D


OP = Original poster, thread starter.
Atari will rule the world, long after man has disappeared

sometime my English is a little weird, Google translate is my best friend :)

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby troed » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:06 am

Gryzor wrote:This sentence doesn't even make sense. Did I claim that "Marco isn't aware that the English isn't up to native level"??? Did I say "he would actively steer away from help"?


From your thread starter:

"I feel really saddened that the author sees nothing wrong with the first volume"


Where exactly does my ignorance lie? In that I believe that the result is sub-par? How is that ignorance? Why would I care what transpired between you two or others?


That you do not care about the actual facts is likely a big reason why you're ignorant. I'll assume that's just part of your general character based on your posts here though.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:12 am

troed wrote:
From your thread starter:

"I feel really saddened that the author sees nothing wrong with the first volume"


Oh yeah, and that, you think, refers to mistakes in English? Sheesh... Those (not many, few actually, but just not making spelling errors does not guarantee a good translation; especially if the original is very idiomatic and peculiar) were the least of my concerns...

That you do not care about the actual facts is likely a big reason why you're ignorant. I'll assume that's just part of your general character based on your posts here though.
[/quote]

Fact: I asked him if he wanted feedback. He didn't. Fact: I directly told him a few comments, unsolicited. He said the second volume will be more of the same.

As for the name-calling, good for you, not going to feed the troll myself.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby troed » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:40 am

Gryzor wrote:Fact: I asked him if he wanted feedback. He didn't. Fact: I directly told him a few comments, unsolicited.


Fact: I seriously doubt many people generally solicit the kind of feedback you give. Marco has had no problems asking me for feedback, nor taking in any of what I gave.

(PS: You might want to learn what "troll" means in a discussion format before using it. If you want constructive unsolicited advice that is ... )

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby Gryzor » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:43 am

You can ask him for my emails, and you can see the Twitter discussion we had. Instead of, you know, showing your ignorance.

And yes, when someone starts name-calling in a thread, that right on par for a flame and is definitely troll behavior.
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby troed » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 am

Gryzor wrote:And yes, when someone starts name-calling in a thread, that right on par for a flame and is definitely troll behavior.


Again, it would help if you took the time to learn what "trolling" means before using it. You know, if you can handle some unsolicited constructive criticism.

As to why you think your emails and Twitter convo has anything to do with our discussion I don't know. Maybe it's a language barrier.

/Troed

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby EmpireAndrew » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:20 am

I bought volume 1 which as with most Kickstarters was very late. Or at least felt like it was.

For the price paid for such a low print run book I was amazed at the physical quality, the printing, the page layout, the binding etc.
A very high quality item that again, given the print run and price, was above my expectations.

On the negative side, the English was pretty poor. I'm not talking typos which are easier to correct with several rounds of slow and careful proof reading, I'm referring to the poor English in terms of sentence construction. It's certainly not Chinglish, but it's clear the author isn't a native English speaker. I knew that when I ordered it but I had hoped it would be a little better than it was.

That said, I still enjoyed the book and am very glad I bought it.

I will buy the second volume for sure. (I'll back it after this post)

It would be nice if the 2nd volume was not only more carefully proof-read, but also had better English to begin with.
It needs proof-reading by a native English speaker

I think the amazingly high physical quality I mentioned is probably part of the reason why I expected more polished prose. Double edged sword!
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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby AtariFan » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:17 pm

I wrote a German review about the Thalion section of the book.

I enjoyed the book and decided not to mention the negative aspects of the book in my review. They only lowered my appreciation for the book and are not relevant for other readers:

#1: Pictures & texts of my website were used with permission but were not correctly and completely credited.
-> I listed every page of the book containing images taken from my website in my review without further commenting it.

#2: I had asked to credit my website when using my images and texts. In two of three cases my URL (http://home.wtal.de/gmb) wasn't written correctly.

Writing Marco about it, he only answered that URLs change over time (so there's no need to properly credit them from the start?) and that people are smart enough to google my website - not the answer I had hoped for.

I was surprised the money needed to fund volume 2 increased in comparison to volume 1, despite lesser goodies.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby mikro » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:34 pm

AtariFan wrote:I was surprised the money needed to fund volume 2 increased in comparison to volume 1, despite lesser goodies.

You can thank to people like Gryzor for that:

This time the costs are also rising high, because I need to pay a translator and investigate more into the outcome of the language quality. Richard Karsmakers has done an amazing job, which anyone can easily see, but as a full-time teacher this is just unacceptable to repeat again!

Whether this is good news or bad news, I leave up to you.

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Re: The Atari ST (and others) and the Creative People

Postby AtariFan » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:05 pm

Whether this is good news or bad news, I leave up to you.


Having receiced Marco's email about the backgrounds of the new kickstarter, I think investing money in a good translation is good news (although I didn't really mind the translation of volume 1).


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