Which direction retro computing goes ?

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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby johnnyboy1911 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:00 pm

Atari computer is for me a feeling and memories a feeling you can not clone or emulate.

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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby dhedberg » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:02 pm

johnnyboy1911 wrote:Atari computer is for me a feeling and memories a feeling you can not clone or emulate.

So true. I think the memories are an important factor. Something that unites us and that make it harder for people that were not there when it all happened.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:19 pm

joska wrote:
troed wrote:Our kids don't care.


We don't know that yet. Look at the vintage car/motorcycle community. There's a huge amount of pre-war vehicles kept alive by people who was not even born when these were made. We don't know if something like that will happen with computers, but as computers are most likely here to stay and make an even greater impact on our lives in the future, I think there will be an interest for pioneering computers in the future.


A pre-war car can use the same roads built for modern Tesla.
A 80s computer can use the same connection protocol built for modern Ryzen.

A pre-war car can take you to your destination as well as a modern Volvo.
A 80s computer can use take you to your webpage as well as a modern Core i7.

Sure... pre-war cars are a nice analogy. :cheers:
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby dhedberg » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:34 pm

wongck wrote:A 80s computer can use take you to your webpage as well as a modern Core i7

Core i7? That's ancient technology. Core i9 you mean? :lol:
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby christos » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:20 pm

Well, to me it's more about the experience. You can have a similar experience when running a clone or an fpga recreation but not when using an emulator. With the emulator you can switch to the host OS any time, and you will do it. With the fpga you get a similar experience (as long as the compatibility is there).

I wouldn't mind an fpga falcon at a reasonable price, that's for sure.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby fidzen » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:43 pm

I own two Falcon's and really enjoy playing around with them.
I like to be able to use them as stock Falcon's or with the CT63 and SV.
I want to be able to enjoy the design of my old computers and also the
smell of the old electronics.
I have tried emulator once, but I felt nothing. Not the thing for me!
But I have also ordered a Firebee and are looking forward to test it.
I think my old original Falcon still will be my number one choice,
but the firebee is cool in it's own way.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby Total Eclipse » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:48 am

dhedberg wrote:I have no interest in anything but the real hardware. I think the MIST attracts people without real hardware that want to experience it again. It's alot easier and cheaper to get the MIST up and running.

I'll say yes, and no.

I have my old STFM still, along with a handful of Amiga's. However, I almost always use my MiST for ST/Amiga related stuff. The great thing about the MiST is that it's quick to set up and use - my keyboard and mouse are wireless, I can power it from my TV's USB port, I don't have to fiddle around with floppy disks, I can add new disk images more quickly and simply than transferring files and writing floppies, I can switch from, say, a ST to a Spectrum to an Amiga without having to fiddle around with cables. For 99% of my time, it's simply easier and more convenient than the original hardware.

Saying that, there's still something nice about digging out the old hardware on occasion, but I simply don't usually bother.

As Troed mentioned, the weak area of the ST core is in demos. There are actually some that run flawlessly (I can't remember which, off the top of my head, but I've definitely played a couple from Delta Force), but the really impressive hardware-hitting stuff is currently out of reach for the ST core.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby Atarieterno » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:13 pm

Atari in the 21st century is a set consisting of: people of their generation who still have original machines (their feeling, nostalgia, experiences ... can not be cloned or emulated), new users ("retromusics" who have recovered ST for Sequencing and controlling their modern machines), clones and emulators.
We all participate in this community and all have their space, but the experience of using an original machine (with or without reinforcements) can never be compared to a modern imitation; Is it the same to use Cubase MIDI in a STacy or STbook with to use a modern laptop with emulator? Is not similar, is to choose between real sex or cybersex (to change the analogy of cars, XD).
I have spent a lot of money on ST, Mega STe, TT, Falcon, MKX, accessories of all kinds ... I do not regret any used centimes, although I could buy many modern devices with the same money; But it is not the same nor I do not believe that the "future" is in the clones. When the old Atarians disappear, the clones will be an anecdote, they will never be legend.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:08 pm

dhedberg wrote:Core i7? That's ancient technology. Core i9 you mean? :lol:


You want a pre-war CPU to beat a 18 core beast??? Really ???
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:09 pm

fidzen wrote:I have tried emulator once, but I felt nothing. Not the thing for me!


it's the keyboard/mouse.... a FB you need to get an Atari keyboard & mouse.... like the one for TT or MSTE.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby fidzen » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:18 pm

wongck wrote:
fidzen wrote:I have tried emulator once, but I felt nothing. Not the thing for me!


it's the keyboard/mouse.... a FB you need to get an Atari keyboard & mouse.... like the one for TT or MSTE.


By emulator I ment Hatari on a modern computer.
I have bought a Mega ST keyboard just to use with my Firebee. I think that will increase the feeling. :-)
Now I only wait for the Firebee.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby Zarchos » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:58 pm

Retrocomputing will die with us, it is my opinion.
Youngsters want speed, realtime everyday graphics.
I see a chance for the opensource projects because the technology of our old computers could attract wanabee VHDL developers.
For example, thanks to TerribleFire, I am going to study FPGA programming, otherwise I would not have even tried to.
Youngsters could think the same.
Starting with cores to mimic basic machines (ql) and then ramping up in complexity ... they would end up liking them, by studying their guts.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:59 pm

Zarchos wrote:Retrocomputing will die with us, it is my opinion.


I agree with that.
20 years from today, there will be new technology that even 5 years old phones cannot cope with let alone a 50 yr old computer.
At work, a 2 yr old notebook has difficulty connecting to a new projector because of the advances in VGA to DP to HDMI to USB-C.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby darklight » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:42 am

Zarchos wrote:Retrocomputing will die with us, it is my opinion.
Youngsters want speed, realtime everyday graphics.
...


Not a chance. Think back to when you were young, perhaps in the heyday of the ST. You wanted speed, and realtime everyday graphics (whatever that is). You wanted something better than the ST (or whatever you had), and you would have dropped your computer at the time in a second to get it. And yet here you are, on an online forum dedicated to the ST, 20 - 30 years later. Today's youngsters will just count today's hardware as retro too, so the timespan of what is considered 'retro' will shift to include more years.

Will that mean older computers drop off the retro radar? I don't think so - although there will be less love devoted to them over time, as they fade from living memory. You've got to remember there are people picking up up 8 and 16 bit machines - who are genuinely interested in them - who were not yet born at the time they were popular. Same thing for old cars, aeroplanes, whatever really.

My personal take on the whole original hardware / emulators thing - it doesn't really matter. I had to give up my ST when I moved to the other side of the planet - I regret having to, but had no choice really. But I still relive my time on the ST by playing games in emulators. The sound might not be 100% accurate, but the pixels sure are, just with less bleed. It doesn't take any of the fun away from me.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:12 am

darklight wrote: I had to give up my ST when I moved to the other side of the planet - I regret having to, but had no choice really.

I carried my Falcon in a luggage when I got it from US.
Back in those time, there were no computer restrictions on airplane.... come to think of it there were no (or few) laptops in those days :lol:
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby Zarchos » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:32 am

wongck wrote:
darklight wrote: I had to give up my ST when I moved to the other side of the planet - I regret having to, but had no choice really.

I carried my Falcon in a luggage when I got it from US.
Back in those time, there were no computer restrictions on airplane.... come to think of it there were no (or few) laptops in those days :lol:


A flying Falcon, well that sounds very logical, to me ;-)
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby joska » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:32 am

wongck wrote:20 years from today, there will be new technology that even 5 years old phones cannot cope with let alone a 50 yr old computer.


That's irrelevant. People are not using 8-bits because they're so good at watching movies on Netflix with, but because of the qualities of the 8-bit machine itself. That will not change in the future. I'm quite sure that in the future it will be a lot easier to keep an 80's computer running than today, because technology will allow spare parts to be made cheaply even in small production runs.

However, we can't know if retro computers will be popular in the future. Most "old stuff" is simply forgotten, while some things survive. I *think* our old computers will survive, simply because they represent the start of a revolution that has had a huge impact on the lives of most people on this planet. That makes them interesting and collectible.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby Zarchos » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:38 am

darklight wrote:
Zarchos wrote:Retrocomputing will die with us, it is my opinion.
Youngsters want speed, realtime everyday graphics.
...


Not a chance. Think back to when you were young, perhaps in the heyday of the ST. You wanted speed, and realtime everyday graphics (whatever that is). You wanted something better than the ST (or whatever you had), and you would have dropped your computer at the time in a second to get it. And yet here you are, on an online forum dedicated to the ST, 20 - 30 years later. Today's youngsters will just count today's hardware as retro too, so the timespan of what is considered 'retro' will shift to include more years.

Will that mean older computers drop off the retro radar? I don't think so - although there will be less love devoted to them over time, as they fade from living memory. You've got to remember there are people picking up up 8 and 16 bit machines - who are genuinely interested in them - who were not yet born at the time they were popular. Same thing for old cars, aeroplanes, whatever really.

My personal take on the whole original hardware / emulators thing - it doesn't really matter. I had to give up my ST when I moved to the other side of the planet - I regret having to, but had no choice really. But I still relive my time on the ST by playing games in emulators. The sound might not be 100% accurate, but the pixels sure are, just with less bleed. It doesn't take any of the fun away from me.


To be very honest I am on this board because I own some STs, I respect Atari users, contrary to well ... the others ... because ST users are humble, know their machines, and don't claim their machines are the best.
Programmers did marvellous things with this affordable machine, where you must be very clever, among the best 68000 asm coders.
My main machine, the one I really worship, is the Archimedes.
It is possible among the retro machines, what will stay is the machines that already offered Advanced features, were 'open' and for these reasons they keep a userbase of real enthusiasts. Ie : users and developpers, be it software or hardware.
I don't think the future of retro enthusiasm is in gaming ... To me it's the 'easy to develop on' that will mainly keep the retro computers alive.
But hey it is only my opinion.
To answer you : no I didn't want to change brand when I had my Archie : considering what it was and still is today, I'm still very happy with this modern, user-friendly, innovative and responsive machine. Speed for everything is the key.
Thanks to it, I learnt assembly language, and it wouldn't have happened on any other system.
I wouldn't consider ASM programming on any other system than an early ARM based machine.
And believe me : I'm not the only one thinking that.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:48 am

joska wrote:That's irrelevant. People are not using 8-bits because they're so good at watching movies on Netflix with, but because of the qualities of the 8-bit machine itself. That will not change in the future. I'm quite sure that in the future it will be a lot easier to keep an 80's computer running than today, because technology will allow spare parts to be made cheaply even in small production runs.


Interesting quoting a 8-bit computer.
May be it is because an '85 computer is trying to be use a modern webpage in another thread or not.

Also the supporting microprocessors are getting more powerful and cheaper. These can be used to made into peripherals for retro computers. :cheers:
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby joska » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:03 pm

wongck wrote:May be it is because an '85 computer is trying to be use a modern webpage in another thread or not.


?

wongck wrote:Also the supporting microprocessors are getting more powerful and cheaper. These can be used to made into peripherals for retro computers. :cheers:


Yes, this is already happening, especially in the 8-bit scene.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:28 pm

Indeed, there is high demand for components for most popular oldies. And that would be C64, what was sold in biggest number - as I know over 60 millions. Additionally, that computer, especially first, "fat" version was with really not high quality chips. I repaired plenty of them, and needed to find good sources for C64 chips. It is normal that manufacturing of them was discontinued long time ago. This reminds me that I still have some 5-6 of them, there must be 1 SID too, so I will look some C64 forum, and offer them for good money :D
So, normal that some went into production of such parts. It is something what exists over decades for old cars. I knew man who manufactured bumpers for some old BMW coupes. Prices were over 1000 DM. That was mostly hand work. Today is possible to produce custom chips in lower quantity for affordable price. What is not possible is to produce old car clone for affordable price.
Unlike it, it is possible to produce computer clones for affordable prices. Although, analogy with cars is not best - cars still run on old fashion roads, use practically same fuel, oil. While with new computers we need new type peripherals - and clones just can use them. so people does not need to seek some old mices, keyboards, monitors, etc. Indeed, it is not same feeling. but price is certainly more important factor for majority.

I don't think that retro computing will disappear in next 100-200 years. But is hard to imagine that some ordinary people can then afford working computer from 198x - that will be very expensive and time costing adventure. Word "restauration" comes to mind. And in my city it exists, right with computers, in museum. What will be probably only place where 99.999999% of people will see working oldie.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby wongck » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:36 pm

Just keep in mind that retro time frame. What is today tech will be retro in 20-30 years.
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Re: Which direction retro computing goes ?

Postby Mindthreat » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:40 pm

I think it only makes sense to go into the direction of flashback-styled recreations over actual hardware. I'm a purist and want nothing more than the original but at the same time, will openly entertain projects that try to recreate the architecture in its entirety that will act exactly as original hardware and even replicate the casing/design aesthetics as well. I've been considering 3D printing a Mega ST here soon and feel like that would be an interesting way to go by the means of a Raspberry Pi 3. I could print and implement something nice for probably well under $100. Mega/STe's tend to go for $300+ here in the U.S. and Falcons? Forget about it.

The silly prices of the ultra rare ST Book also doesn't make sense. From a collector standpoint it does and it seems to be a highly desirable machine out of pure interest alone. With technology today, we should easily be able to replicate the entire thing for under $200, if not even better and having basically portable Falcons.
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