MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:42 pm

EmpireAndrew wrote:
christos wrote:For your network issue, which ethernet driver are you using? I've found the driver provided with MiNT to be less than optimal, I'd try the Assemsoft driver.
http://assemsoft.atari.org/


You da man!

Yes is seems Mint does not like the ENEC3.XIF driver I was using.
The Assemsoft one works perfectly, or at least CAB now works so I can get back to working on the site!

Now I just need to figure out why Highwire doesn't even try to start up...

Does anyone have a working Highwire they can zip up for me so I can compare it to what I have?
Also does Highwire need a a special filesystem type or something? I'm trying to run it off my TOS boot partition...


You know, this is one thing I haven't gotten working on my Falcon yet, being able to browse the web. Anyone have a working install of Netsurf as well to test with? I always kind of thought it'd be nice if we could make that the standard browser for 16/32 machines.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:33 pm

I have been using CAB 2.8 on my TT.
I couldn't find a working install of Highwire sadly and the original site downloads are gone... :(
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:45 pm

Are you using Bing or Yahoo search?
When I put in "atari highwire" Google came out with "Highwire download | SourceForge.net" as first item.
The latest download there is from May 2010. May be Mono has a later build.

My guess is that most webpage layout will not work well on it. IDK.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:59 am

Hmm, duckduckgo listed the highwire.sourceforge.net link as the fourth one.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:23 am

leech wrote:Hmm, duckduckgo listed the highwire.sourceforge.net link as the fourth one.

Glad that you found it also. Go Donald go....

Sorry whenever someone say duck, I jsut think of Donald Duck :mrgreen:
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:52 am

I just like saying 'duck it' over 'google it'. :D
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:02 pm

Yes I'm aware of how to use most search engines... ;)

That's interesting because when I was using Google and Bing a few months ago I didn't come across any of these sites as far as I remember...
Just a lot of dead download links.
I'll give it another shot.

I know they're next to useless for browsing the web in general, but I am making my own site and I'm trying to ensure it displays correctly on old machines using old browsers, which is easy enough although writing the back end of the CMS to work on the same browsers is proving more problematic...
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:56 pm

It's not just you, @EmpireAndrew. I did it quite a few months back and couldn't find anything on Highwire either. Couldn't find a decent link for CAB either. I thought there was one more browser / suite out there. Draconis or something? Netsurf seems to be the most capable though (css support and all that jazz)
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby trecool » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:32 pm

Netsurf is the best browser around but you can only use it as text only. Except if you are one of those lucky SV or CTPCI owners. It is reported slow rendering images even on CT60 Falcon machines though.
Links browser isn't bad.

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:50 pm

trecool wrote:Netsurf is the best browser around but you can only use it as text only. Except if you are one of those lucky SV or CTPCI owners. It is reported slow rendering images even on CT60 Falcon machines though.
Links browser isn't bad.


From what I know, netsurf target users is actually Atari high-end users. Mono, who did Netsurf, was IIRC one of the 1st few who had the Radeon running on his CT60.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:54 pm

leech wrote:It's not just you, @EmpireAndrew. I did it quite a few months back and couldn't find anything on Highwire either.


My guess is that Google is like a DOG not a duck.
You need to train it, but I know lots of ppl using anonymously so that no tracking etc stuff like that, does not help.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:57 pm

EmpireAndrew wrote:
I know they're next to useless for browsing the web in general, but I am making my own site and I'm trying to ensure it displays correctly on old machines using old browsers, which is easy enough although writing the back end of the CMS to work on the same browsers is proving more problematic...


In that case stick to CAB as it is in the same era as ST.
Links, Netsurf are mainly for the next generation.

I did that when I had my website hosted by 110mb as they allow direct HTML editing and do not enforce standards templates.
This until they screwed up & I have to move to Google.
Unlike 110mb, Google enforces templates which makes it impossible to make it compatible with CAB. :(
My guess is that it is getting harder to do unless you host your own server.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:59 am

Yeah that's why it'd be awesome to have a compatible browser made that is lightweight... but with javascript and all that nonsense on a lot of pages, it makes it hard for the poor 16mhz system to be able to handle it. Browsing is pretty painful even on my Amiga that has a 060@50 with 384mb of ram and a Radeon card in it. Though to be fair Netsurf on it SEEMS slow.. because it caches the whole page. it's actually fairly quick, considering. It's just weird and non-native on the Amiga, if that makes sense.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:42 am

A modern browser capable of accessing modern sites will never happen imho.
Even if someone could get some open source code running the thing would run like treacle...
On the face of it, a web page seems like a simple thing, and once upon a time they were. Frankly I consider JavaScript to be completely unnecessary as for me, content is king. If I go the BBC website to read a news article which is a bunch of paragraphs with some images or even an inline video, it's a few KB in old code. But now it's wrapped up in several MB of junk.
Even if we only added full HTML4 and CSS3 support and no JavaScript we'd struggle, and our CPUs would be too slow to parse it. CSS requires far more CPU than people realize.
The problem is web sites are designed to use what is shiny and new under the pretence of making things engaging for the user (really? I just want the content), and all the ads on top kill it.

To make my stuff work I had to go back to HTML 3 (tables, not CSS!) and use images basically nowhere but in the actual content.

Even then, on an accelerated TT, it's a good minute per page to browse 10x 24KB images via 7KB worth of table based HTML. If you want a nicer experience you can turn off the internet images and browse from page to page in under 5 seconds, and just load up the images if you're interested.

But at least it works. It's do-able. No-one is locked out.
Whereas other sites just aren't accessible at all, no matter how much patience you have.

Basically this sums up the problem:
https://vimeo.com/147806338
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1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:23 am

I think the answer to that is an ad-blocking proxy. Then the ads don't even make it to the browser. Ads to me are what break the internet, can you imagine how clean everything would be without all that extra crap?
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:15 am

I run a good ad blocker on my modern machines so it's only when I use someone else's machine without it that I see how bad it really is...
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1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:42 pm

Same here. I always ask when I see someone pull up a youtube video 'what is this crap? Install adblocker...'

The worse are the sites that pop up whining that you have adblocker installed. I just get my information elsewhere. I think browsers need a blacklist function...

Anyhow, sorry, going off topic here. We do need some sort of nice troubleshooting guide.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:03 pm

Your browser has a built-in ad blocker.....

Most ads runs mostly on javascript. Your built-in ad blocker stops javascript from running by not putting in a Javascript engine into your browser.

duh!. wah wah wah
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:24 pm

Sadly that breaks too many sites because web designers these days suck...
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:59 am

web designers are just designers
so they design webpages... with content tools that drag & drop components to put together a web page.
they do not code web page html any more.
just like you go to subway and they put together a sandwich for you, they do not do the cooking.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby christos » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:27 am

wongck wrote:web designers are just designers
so they design webpages... with content tools that drag & drop components to put together a web page.
they do not code web page html any more.
just like you go to subway and they put together a sandwich for you, they do not do the cooking.


That is absolutely not true. Even using builders you will need to write html. But most of the html is generated by php so most code is written there.
It was much worse back in the early 2000's where all html was created by dreamweaver and much worse with flash.
Still websites are heavy because users and mobile. Users like having all that javascript and all that social integration and high res images..
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:00 am

christos wrote:That is absolutely not true. Even using builders you will need to write html.


may be those in your company are a level higher on the coding arena.
i need to get web coders to help out those in my company when the tool cannot make the effect they wanted.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:42 pm

Bad tools let you drag in oversized images.
In some cases images are far higher res than they need to be for the res they will be displayed at, and no attempt is made to compress them either.
As for the social media like buttons and so on, I think it's less than 1 percent of users who use them, that's why I see no likes or shares listed next next to said buttons.
People have done stuff on websites for years because "they" (whoever they are) tell you that it's needed today. With nothing to back it up whatsoever.

I honestly think the average web designer just doesn't care or doesn't understand what they're doing.
For example, Apple have always gone for minimalist looking designs, not a lot of text, and a few nice images. But as in the link I posted, some of their web pages are over 50MB while not really conveying that much to you.

Another example from the link I posted is the site that loaded in a video of a rotating globe as the background for a page, which re-downloads itself every time it loops! And it's not clear to me why it needed to be a rotating globe in the first place when a photo would suffice. It's a kicker because it's on a website talking about limited bandwidth and is proposing solutions. While clearly showing they don't understand the problem.

I miss the old web...
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1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby leech » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:26 am

Ha, I thought most people just did some CSS layout tweaks and used Wordpress. At least that's what the web dev guy I know does. But I agree, most web designers don't actually deal directly with html code these days.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby christos » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:08 pm

leech wrote:Ha, I thought most people just did some CSS layout tweaks and used Wordpress. At least that's what the web dev guy I know does. But I agree, most web designers don't actually deal directly with html code these days.


That's because they are graphic artists with no coding background gone web designers. While it's absolutely true you can use something like visual composer and get a website up in a few days, I found that this isn't exactly what the customers want. You need to edit your HTML boxes and add classes and id's because you will need to style elements and catch them with javascript. Also, writing html is much faster than waiting for the javascript in those builders :D

E-shops need also a lot more coding, but mostly in the php core because every store needs a lot of customization if you want to actually incorporate the e-shop in the clients workflow.

EmpireAndrew wrote:Bad tools let you drag in oversized images.
In some cases images are far higher res than they need to be for the res they will be displayed at, and no attempt is made to compress them either.
As for the social media like buttons and so on, I think it's less than 1 percent of users who use them, that's why I see no likes or shares listed next next to said buttons.

Most of these buttons include random like numbers to be displayed or the option to display no numbers. images will always need to be fairly large and mostly over 1000x1000 pixels (at least for products). So there isn't much you can do (that res is actually a requirement for product search engines).
People have done stuff on websites for years because "they" (whoever they are) tell you that it's needed today. With nothing to back it up whatsoever.

I honestly think the average web designer just doesn't care or doesn't understand what they're doing.
For example, Apple have always gone for minimalist looking designs, not a lot of text, and a few nice images. But as in the link I posted, some of their web pages are over 50MB while not really conveying that much to you.

I miss the old web...


Unless you check the code to see what it does you can't really know why it is so big. But I can tell you that minimalistic is actually hard to achieve. As for who "they" are, they are called clients, their marketing people and end users. The average user doesn't really know or care that their autoloading responsive drop down menu is about 3 php scripts and 10 ajax queries on 5 different javascript files that call 7 different libraries. The social media marketer doesn't care that only 1% of users will use a feature that needs 3 days to implement when that 1% can reach a few thousand extra possible visitors and the clients only care when they don't sell.

wongck wrote:
christos wrote:That is absolutely not true. Even using builders you will need to write html.


may be those in your company are a level higher on the coding arena.
i need to get web coders to help out those in my company when the tool cannot make the effect they wanted.


You probably don't have web developers in your company then. Our company is a web agency though, so we do a lot of development.
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