Amiga @wikipedia - history

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Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Fri May 15, 2015 12:01 pm

today I open Amiga page at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga

and read: "Atari was in turmoil as a result of the crash, and the computer division was sold to Jack Tramiel in June 1984. Amiga and Atari had been in talks since March,[9] but these were going nowhere. Tramiel provided a $500,000 loan to keep them running, with the proviso that failure to pay it back in one month would leave Atari owning the technology.[10]"

references 9 & 10 are:
- New York Times, 29 August 1984, p. D16 (uncheckable)
- http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/08/ ... -part-3/3/ (Jeremy Reimer)


is it possible that someone so blatantly rewrite historian facts?!?
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri May 15, 2015 6:43 pm

calimero wrote:today I open Amiga page at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga

and read: "Atari was in turmoil as a result of the crash, and the computer division was sold to Jack Tramiel in June 1984. Amiga and Atari had been in talks since March,[9] but these were going nowhere. Tramiel provided a $500,000 loan to keep them running, with the proviso that failure to pay it back in one month would leave Atari owning the technology.[10]"

references 9 & 10 are:
- New York Times, 29 August 1984, p. D16 (uncheckable)
- http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/08/ ... -part-3/3/ (Jeremy Reimer)


is it possible that someone so blatantly rewrite historian facts?!?


.....but the only interested suitor was Atari, who lent the struggling company $500,000 as part of a set of painful buyout negotiations. According to the contract, Amiga had to pay back the $500,000 by the end of June or Atari would own all of their technology.

"This was a dumb thing to agree to but there was no choice," said Jay Miner, who had already taken a second mortgage out on his house to keep the company going.

Fortunately for Amiga (or unfortunately, depending on how you imagine your alternate histories) Commodore came calling at the last minute with a buyout plan of its own. It gave Amiga the $500,000 to pay back Atari, briefly thought about paying $4 million for the rights to use the custom chips, and then finally went all in and paid $24 million to purchase the entire company. The Amiga had been saved, but it now belonged to Commodore.

What is exactly a rewrite of the history to you ? Are you actually calling Miner (Peace on him) a liar ?
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Fri May 15, 2015 7:44 pm

"Tramiel provided a $500,000 loan to keep them running"
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Amimitl » Fri May 15, 2015 8:30 pm

calimero is right. It was Atari, Inc. and not Atari Corp. who gave that loan. Jack Tramiel had nothing to do with it. Although later when that deal was discovered, they used it to make a countersue against Commodore, because Commodore was suing them.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat May 16, 2015 12:43 am

Amimitl wrote:calimero is right. It was Atari, Inc. and not Atari Corp. who gave that loan. Jack Tramiel had nothing to do with it. Although later when that deal was discovered, they used it to make a countersue against Commodore, because Commodore was suing them.


Taken from the french wikipedia page of Jack Tramiel :

"...But at the moment when Jack Tramiel signed atari's buyback (1984), Commodore leaders were in contact with Amiga, whom had a need for financial backup in order to develop its computer range. Tramiel then pursues legal action against Amiga and Commodore for collusion. The trial will be held in 1987, the time for both manufacturers launch their new range of computers, and will result in the payment of compensation in favor of Atari."

The other big mistake you make is that Atari Inc. was sold by Bushnell and Dabney to Warner in 1976, which sold it to Tramiel in 1984.

It is to note also that in 1984, Tramel Technology is renamed Atari Corporation.

Tramiel was the boss of the Atari Inc "Computers & Video game console" branch at the time the collusion happened.

Warner kept for them the coin-op branch of the Atari Inc group, and renamed it Atari Games, which has nothing to do with the branch concerned with the "Amiga affair".

This is the proof Tramiel was the owner of Atari Inc and Atari Corporation, this in 1984 !

So it's him who gave the loan, and nobody else. And the collusion has been discovered by his son Leonard.....

Please know your facts guys....
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Sat May 16, 2015 6:17 am

Jack Tramiel said that he never gave loan to Amiga.

Are you actually calling Jack (Peace on him) a liar ?


EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvbsPNBIyk (50min+)
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat May 16, 2015 8:58 am

calimero wrote:Jack Tramiel said that he never gave loan to Amiga.

Are you actually calling Jack (Peace on him) a liar ?


EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvbsPNBIyk (50min+)


I watched the whole clip. Jack never talks about the loan in this video, which talks very superficially about the amiga and the atari st.

Please post your source.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Amimitl » Sat May 16, 2015 9:43 am

dlfrsilver wrote:The other big mistake you make is that Atari Inc. was sold by Bushnell and Dabney to Warner in 1976, which sold it to Tramiel in 1984.

It was still called Atari, Inc. under Warner, so how is that a mistake?

dlfrsilver wrote:It is to note also that in 1984, Tramel Technology is renamed Atari Corporation.

Which was my point. The Atari under Jack Tramiel was called Atari Corporation and not Atari, Incorporated. Atari, Inc. under Warner was the one who gave that loan to Amiga.

And here is an excerpt from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_International#Tramiel_quits.3B_the_Amiga_vs._ST_battle:

During development in 1983, Amiga had exhausted venture capital and was desperate for more financing. Jay Miner and company had approached former employer Atari, and the Warner-owned Atari had paid Amiga to continue development work.[19] In return Atari was to get one-year exclusive use of the design as a video game console. After one year Atari would have the right to add a keyboard and market the complete Amiga computer. The Atari Museum has acquired the Atari-Amiga contract and Atari engineering logs revealing that the Atari Amiga was originally designated as the 1850XLD. As Atari was heavily involved with Disney at the time, it was later code-named "Mickey", and the 256K memory expansion board was codenamed "Minnie".[20]

The following year, Tramiel discovered that Warner Communications wanted to sell Atari, which was rumored to be losing about $10,000 a day. Interested in Atari's overseas manufacturing and worldwide distribution network for his new computer, he approached Atari and entered negotiations. After several on-again/off-again talks with Atari in May and June 1984, Tramiel had secured his funding and bought Atari's Consumer Division (which included the console and home computer departments) in July.

As more execs and researchers left Commodore after the announcement to join up with Tramiel's new company Atari Corp., Commodore followed by filing lawsuits against four former engineers for theft of trade secrets in late July. This was intended, in effect, to bar Tramiel from releasing his new computer.

One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire most of Atari's remaining staff, and to cancel almost all ongoing projects, in order to review their continued viability. In late July/early August, Tramiel representatives discovered the original Amiga contract from the previous fall. Seeing a chance to gain some leverage, Tramiel immediately used the contract to counter-sue Commodore through its new subsidiary, Amiga, on August 13.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat May 16, 2015 10:13 am

It was still called Atari, Inc. under Warner, so how is that a mistake?


Nope, that's where you're wrong pal. Once Warner sold Atari Inc to Tramiel, The remaining Coin-op branch was renamed Atari Games.

Atari Games had no links nor ties with atari Inc once sold to Tramiel.

Which was my point. The Atari under Jack Tramiel was called Atari Corporation and not Atari, Incorporated. Atari, Inc. under Warner was the one who gave that loan to Amiga.


Nope, that's not what i wrote earlier. I know that companies splits are not easy to apprehend so there you go.

JUNE 1972 : Atari Inc. is launched by Bushnell and Dabney.
OCTOBER 1976 : Atari Inc. is sold to Warner Communications.
JULY 1984 : Warner communications sells the second branch of Atari Inc. (consumer division) to Tramel Technology. Tramel Technology is then renamed Atari Corporation the same month. Atari Inc. is then disappearing after the selling of the second branch by Warner Coms.


After this, Atari Inc. exists no more inside Warner Communications, which renamed the remaining 1st branch to Atari Games (Coin-op division), branch that Tramiel is not owning nor working with.

That's where you're wrong. the coin-op division called Atari Games never had anything to see and do with the Amiga chipset affair.

You must also note that Atari Inc. as company was defunct in 1984, when warner comms did the splitting of properties.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Amimitl » Sat May 16, 2015 10:23 am

@dlfrsilver:

I'm totally aware of the split up, but that came as a result of Tramiel buying the consumer division of Atari, Inc. But the loan we are discussing was done before that, when all of it was under Warner. That's what you don't comprehend.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat May 16, 2015 11:08 am

Amimitl wrote:@dlfrsilver:

I'm totally aware of the split up, but that came as a result of Tramiel buying the consumer division of Atari, Inc. But the loan we are discussing was done before that, when all of it was under Warner. That's what you don't comprehend.


I have made researches, and indeed, things are not clear at all. But you are right. Things started in 1982, and the deal conclusion was to be done the 30th of june 1984. Which did not happened.

Tramiel got f*cked by commodore, and we know the rest of the story, the amiga being what it was, and the atari ST what it could.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Sat May 16, 2015 11:14 am

dlfrsilver wrote:
calimero wrote:Jack Tramiel said that he never gave loan to Amiga.

Are you actually calling Jack (Peace on him) a liar ?


EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvbsPNBIyk (50min+)


I watched the whole clip. Jack never talks about the loan in this video, which talks very superficially about the amiga and the atari st.

Please post your source.

are you deaf? (or just trying to be an asshole?)

"I made a deal with Steve Ross to take over Atari.
At that time, Atari was founding the Amiga chip."



...I really do not understand why you amiga guys have pathology need to spread story that Jack Tramiels plan was to build computer around Amiga chip. Maybe because it will make Amiga to look more "desirable", more "magical" and more "beyond it's time"...? (in yours head)

EDIT:
even JIMMY MAHER agree that loan was made before Jack Trmiel: "Whilst going through files of documents in early August, Jack’s son Leonard discovered the Amiga agreement, complete with the $500,000 cashed check from Atari to Amiga, and brought it to his father’s attention."

http://www.filfre.net/2015/04/the-68000 ... k-is-back/

and JIMMY MAHER is Amiga fun boy, that only search opportunity to show Jack Tramiel in bad light. I would said that it is a common hobby for Amiga fans: to show Jack Tramiel in bad light.

and you have book Atari Inc. Business Is Fun (By Marty Goldberg, Curt Vendel):
https://books.google.rs/books?id=3FwGMt ... el&f=false

--- bottom line ---

JACK TRAMIEL DID NOT GAVE LOAN TO AMIGA - IT WAS WARNER COMMUNICATIONS ATARI.

so statement at wikipedia is completely wrong: "Tramiel provided a $500,000 loan to keep them running, with the proviso that failure to pay it back in one month would leave Atari owning the technology" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Cyprian » Sat May 16, 2015 11:53 am

I agree with Calimero, there is something wrong with amiga guys in that subject.

dlfrsilver instead spreading those funny urban legends please read the real story by Marty Goldberg, co-author of books about Atari "Business is Fun" and "Business is War":
"Atari Inc. was already in negotiations in late '83 for access to the Amiga technology for use in it's coin-ops and a game console. What Atari Inc. did had zero bearing on Jack's Atari Corp. though, he didn't even care about Atari Inc.'s own 68000 based computer projects. "

"This is the where the myth about Jack wanting to base it on Amiga technology and quickly needing to go a different route got started. Jack was visiting a lot of places and entered in to talks with many of them, including Amiga."

More you can find there: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26773&start=25#p258936
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat May 16, 2015 5:48 pm

"I made a deal with Steve Ross to take over Atari.
At that time, Atari was founding the Amiga chip."


I heard this when i watched the clip. But this sentence doesn't say anything about the loan.

Jack was just saying he did a world tour, he went to Sri-lanka and there he met Steve Ross who talked to him about how Atari was a failure.
He has then shorten his trip and one month later did what we know (buying consumer division).


...I really do not understand why you amiga guys have pathology need to spread story that Jack Tramiels plan was to build computer around Amiga chip. Maybe because it will make Amiga to look more "desirable", more "magical" and more "beyond it's time"...? (in yours head)


Jack wanted the chips it's not a secret. He wanted to cluck Commodore director's board BIG TIME. The most funny fact i got about him, is that he never gave a cluck about the atari ST. To quote him, typically Jack :

"Despite successfully shipping the ST, Tramiel's poor personal reputation hurt Atari. One retailer said in 1985 about the ST that because of its prior experience with Tramiel "Our interest in Atari is zero, zilch"

Source : Maremaa, Tom (1985-06-03). "Atari Ships New 520 ST". InfoWorld. p. 23.

He was a great businessman, but a scum b*st*rd in truth ! That's how he was seen in the industry.

Then the usual ST guys mythology : "the amiga more desirable, magical, and whatever...".

The amiga was what it WAS, and the ST what it COULD !

It was simply the most powerful home computer of this era, with the most abilities in the western world (the X68000 was not in the same league :lol: )

And yes it was 15 years ahead of its time. What's your problem with this ?

and JIMMY MAHER is Amiga fun boy, that only search opportunity to show Jack Tramiel in bad light. I would said that it is a common hobby for Amiga fans: to show Jack Tramiel in bad light.


This is not difficult to show him in bad light, when you know the silly git he was. It's not our hobby, we simply rely on what he was. It had such a bad reputation in the industry that it went beyond it ! :lol:
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Sat May 16, 2015 6:43 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:He wanted to cluck Commodore director's board BIG TIME.
...
He was a great businessman, but a scum b*st*rd in truth ! That's how he was seen in the industry.
...
This is not difficult to show him in bad light, when you know the silly git he was. It's not our hobby, we simply rely on what he was. It had such a bad reputation in the industry that it went beyond it ! :lol:

please stop. You are clueless.

read: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26773&start=25#p258936


Who was Jack Tramiel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pneG0-Zfyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMD2nF7meDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFAUGbYYTMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NImJFV3wH88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ8ow6g4pHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgbT1ZZqkCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uK7cnsE-4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zlo6ZpvkmY


Amiga entri in wikipedia will be changed soon.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat May 16, 2015 8:10 pm

calimero wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:He wanted to cluck Commodore director's board BIG TIME.
...
He was a great businessman, but a scum b*st*rd in truth ! That's how he was seen in the industry.
...
This is not difficult to show him in bad light, when you know the silly git he was. It's not our hobby, we simply rely on what he was. It had such a bad reputation in the industry that it went beyond it ! :lol:

please stop. You are clueless.

read: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26773&start=25#p258936


Who was Jack Tramiel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pneG0-Zfyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMD2nF7meDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFAUGbYYTMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NImJFV3wH88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ8ow6g4pHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgbT1ZZqkCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uK7cnsE-4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zlo6ZpvkmY


Amiga entri in wikipedia will be changed soon.


Interesting :) However, it's a shame things have not been told earlier, as some people knew about all this things. This would have avoid to get false informations, whatever Jack was.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:09 pm

just to let you know, I removed sentence from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga: ""Tramiel provided a $500,000 loan to keep the company running, with the proviso that failure to pay it back in one month would leave Atari owning the technology" - since there is no mention of Jack Tramiel giving loan to Amiga in reference link (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/08/ ... -part-3/3/)

but somebody should wrote entire story about Atari-Amiga-Commodore timeline...
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby TickledPink » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:24 pm

Just been reading this thread silently to myself.

A few basic points about business.

Jack Tramiel did not own Atari Corp. You cannot own a corporation, even when you buy it. It's like a Limited Company in the UK. The major shareholders, usually the directors, do not own the company. Tramiel installed himself as the CEO and was the majority shareholder. That's it. It enables him to make decisions on behalf of the company. The company, in law, is seen as a separate entity to its directors - basically a company is a separate person in its own right. Think of it as a severely disabled person who has to have others make decisions on its behalf.

Ignoring the arguments over the timeline, it would have been theoretically possible for Tramiel to have offered a loan to Amiga in a personal capacity. On the event of Amiga failing to repay the loan then under those circumstances, the IP would likely have gone to HIM. Once the IP was in his hands, he could have transferred those assets to Atari. If a loan was offered on Atari's behalf whilst Tramiel was CEO then there would have to be some record of it held by Atari to show that the decision to offer the loan had been made, even if Tramiel made that decision himself. It would have been Atari's loan and not Tramiel's.

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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Zarchos » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:06 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
"I made a deal with Steve Ross to take over Atari.
At that time, Atari was founding the Amiga chip."


I heard this when i watched the clip. But this sentence doesn't say anything about the loan.

Jack was just saying he did a world tour, he went to Sri-lanka and there he met Steve Ross who talked to him about how Atari was a failure.
He has then shorten his trip and one month later did what we know (buying consumer division).


...I really do not understand why you amiga guys have pathology need to spread story that Jack Tramiels plan was to build computer around Amiga chip. Maybe because it will make Amiga to look more "desirable", more "magical" and more "beyond it's time"...? (in yours head)


Jack wanted the chips it's not a secret. He wanted to cluck Commodore director's board BIG TIME. The most funny fact i got about him, is that he never gave a cluck about the atari ST. To quote him, typically Jack :

"Despite successfully shipping the ST, Tramiel's poor personal reputation hurt Atari. One retailer said in 1985 about the ST that because of its prior experience with Tramiel "Our interest in Atari is zero, zilch"

Source : Maremaa, Tom (1985-06-03). "Atari Ships New 520 ST". InfoWorld. p. 23.

He was a great businessman, but a scum b*st*rd in truth ! That's how he was seen in the industry.

Then the usual ST guys mythology : "the amiga more desirable, magical, and whatever...".

The amiga was what it WAS, and the ST what it COULD !

It was simply the most powerful home computer of this era, with the most abilities in the western world (the X68000 was not in the same league :lol: )

And yes it was 15 years ahead of its time. What's your problem with this ?

and JIMMY MAHER is Amiga fun boy, that only search opportunity to show Jack Tramiel in bad light. I would said that it is a common hobby for Amiga fans: to show Jack Tramiel in bad light.


This is not difficult to show him in bad light, when you know the silly git he was. It's not our hobby, we simply rely on what he was. It had such a bad reputation in the industry that it went beyond it ! :lol:


No the Amiga wasn't the most powerful home computer of its era : it was the Acorn Archimedes. (You're French so find the SVM micro magazine with the Archimedes on the cover page and this title 'What is the fastest micro in the world under 1500 € ?').
From the 8 Mhz ARM2 A305 to the 233 Mhz Kinetic Strong Arm RISC PC ACORN always produced home computers that made the Amiga look like crippled obsolete computers.

As far as everything Amiga related is concerned, NEVER trust what an Amiga owner has to say about it : it'll always be a pack of lies.
I recently re read what Stapha92 wrote about the Archie hardware and the Amiga hardware on Gamopat when we had this 'debate' comparing both machines (I say 'machines' because I won't name the Amiga 500 without numerous and expensive at the time expansions a 'computer') and after spending some time checking his statements about the Amiga I could understand two thirds of his expressed ideas are etiher false or so uncomplete, minoring the limitations of the hardware, that it ends up being pure propaganda.
As far as the Archie hardware is concerned, it's clear he doesn't understand how it works, because it's so different from the Amiga.
Atari 1040 STE+SATAN, 520ST, 800xl, xegs, Amiga 500, 2000 with 68020, Archimedes, RISC PCs + Iyonix, Omega, BBC B, Atom, Electron, ZX 81, Spectrum 48/128/+2/+3, Speccy2010, Russian clones, Sam Coupe, V6Z80P, QL with accelerators, Enterprise 128, Einstein inc 256, Oric Atmos, MSX 1, 2, Thomson MO5, Amstrads inc CPC+, C 16, 64, 128, VG5000, Apple IIGS and more ! Yes I want to create a museum when I retire.

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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:36 pm

TickledPink wrote:Just been reading this thread silently to myself.

A few basic points about business.

Jack Tramiel did not own Atari Corp. You cannot own a corporation, even when you buy it. It's like a Limited Company in the UK. The major shareholders, usually the directors, do not own the company. Tramiel installed himself as the CEO and was the majority shareholder. That's it. It enables him to make decisions on behalf of the company. The company, in law, is seen as a separate entity to its directors - basically a company is a separate person in its own right. Think of it as a severely disabled person who has to have others make decisions on its behalf.

I am not sure (since I am not resident of USA) but this few links suggest that Atari Corp. WAS privately helded company (without shareholders):
- InfoWorld 1986 link "Ataris marketing push coincides with its upcoming initial public stock offering. ..."

From http://mcurrent.name/atarihistory/trame ... ology.html 1986. "September 18: Atari announced that it had filed a registration statement with the Securities and Exchange Commission for an initial public offering of 4.5 million common shares, to be priced from $11.50 to $13.50. The underwriter for the offering would be Paine Webber Inc. The IPO would occur on November 7. According to the prospectus, ..."

TickledPink wrote:Ignoring the arguments over the timeline, it would have been theoretically possible for Tramiel to have offered a loan to Amiga in a personal capacity.
...

There is really NO NEED to made things up, to beat dead horse, when Curt Vendel and Marty Goldberg in "Atari: Business is fun"documented very well entire story of loan to Amiga. Jack Tramiel did not have nothing with loan to Amiga.
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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Frank B » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:37 pm

"And yes it was 2-3 years ahead of its time. What's your problem with this ?" I've fixed that for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurboGrafx-16, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_II and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X68000 for example.

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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby 1st1 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:45 pm

Zarchos wrote:No the Amiga wasn't the most powerful home computer of its era : it was the Acorn Archimedes. (You're French so find the SVM micro magazine with the Archimedes on the cover page and this title 'What is the fastest micro in the world under 1500 € ?').
From the 8 Mhz ARM2 A305 to the 233 Mhz Kinetic Strong Arm RISC PC ACORN always produced home computers that made the Amiga look like crippled obsolete computers.


Archimedes was really fast, just think about the game what is known as "Virus" on ST and Amiga and was runninmg in 68k code on both machines. That game was an interpreted BASIC program on Archimedes. But Archimedes was not there in 1985 when 520ST and Amiga 1000 appeared on the market, it was slightly later technology. Archimedes was available in about 1987/88 only and at that time you could get about three Amiga 500 or Atari 1040ST for one Archimedes. I still remember a presentation of the Archi in my computer club, we were fascinated by the machine and we knew that technically it was an ST and Amiga killer, but it was unaffordable for most homeusers. On the other side Acorn's marketing was bad, the machine in Germany was not widely available in shops, only specialized dealers which could not survive with that low quantity. Acorn even didn't use the distribution network of their resprective mother company which was Olivetti at that time. I have been apprentice at that time in Olivetti Frankfurt, and we even didn't knew that Acorn was a daughter company. But also, Olivetti was weak in selling PCs to home-users (and their apprentices which mainly used Commodore and ATARI machines at home), they had the Prodest PC1 a Schneider Euro PC competitor, with it's 10 Mhz V40 CPU the Prodest was even faster than Euro PC, but it was only in Italy and Spanish market, but did not brought it to Germanay. Acorn made the same mistake as Commodore in the beginning with the A1000, too expensive, and additionally they were not able to use the sales and marketing ressources of the mother company. When they came out with the cost down A3x00 keyboard computers it was already too late, first home computer users already jumped to x86. Technology advantage is one thing, marketing and sales the other.
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3

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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby calimero » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:18 am

I found in another article same claim that Jack loaned money to Amiga to get chips: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Amiga

"In July 1984, Atari was bought by the recently fired CEO and founder of Commodore, Jack Tramiel, who was taking a substantial number of Commodore's employees with him.[7] He offered $500,000 which must be paid back in one month or Atari would own all of the Amiga technology. It was agreed on of desperation.[2]"
...
"And then in a "surprising" development, in August 1984, the Amiga group found an interested Commodore.[8] Amiga was purchased by Commodore for $27 million -including paying off the Atari loan.[3] And Atari went on to develop the ST which launched in June 1985." - they suggested that Atari develop ST since Jack did not manage to get Amiga chips. OMG!

it use same reference to Jeremy Reimer where is no mention of Jack at all!!! http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/08/ ... -part-3/3/

I also edit that sentence but it would be nice if some natural speaking english person edit and wrote truth on wikipedia. There are great reference (and proofs) in "Bussines is fun" book by Martin and Curt!
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby Zarchos » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:50 pm

1st1 wrote:
Zarchos wrote:No the Amiga wasn't the most powerful home computer of its era : it was the Acorn Archimedes. (You're French so find the SVM micro magazine with the Archimedes on the cover page and this title 'What is the fastest micro in the world under 1500 € ?').
From the 8 Mhz ARM2 A305 to the 233 Mhz Kinetic Strong Arm RISC PC ACORN always produced home computers that made the Amiga look like crippled obsolete computers.


Archimedes was really fast, just think about the game what is known as "Virus" on ST and Amiga and was runninmg in 68k code on both machines. That game was an interpreted BASIC program on Archimedes. But Archimedes was not there in 1985 when 520ST and Amiga 1000 appeared on the market, it was slightly later technology. Archimedes was available in about 1987/88 only and at that time you could get about three Amiga 500 or Atari 1040ST for one Archimedes. I still remember a presentation of the Archi in my computer club, we were fascinated by the machine and we knew that technically it was an ST and Amiga killer, but it was unaffordable for most homeusers. On the other side Acorn's marketing was bad, the machine in Germany was not widely available in shops, only specialized dealers which could not survive with that low quantity. Acorn even didn't use the distribution network of their resprective mother company which was Olivetti at that time. I have been apprentice at that time in Olivetti Frankfurt, and we even didn't knew that Acorn was a daughter company. But also, Olivetti was weak in selling PCs to home-users (and their apprentices which mainly used Commodore and ATARI machines at home), they had the Prodest PC1 a Schneider Euro PC competitor, with it's 10 Mhz V40 CPU the Prodest was even faster than Euro PC, but it was only in Italy and Spanish market, but did not brought it to Germanay. Acorn made the same mistake as Commodore in the beginning with the A1000, too expensive, and additionally they were not able to use the sales and marketing ressources of the mother company. When they came out with the cost down A3x00 keyboard computers it was already too late, first home computer users already jumped to x86. Technology advantage is one thing, marketing and sales the other.


I don't want to start a debate, I simply wrote what I wrote because the statement was wrong, so let's not rewrite history : No the Amiga wasn't the most powerful home computer of its era : it was the Acorn Archimedes.

To be precise with facts : when launched in the U.K the Archimedes offered more than the Amiga when launched AND was cheaper (simply compare the specs with the Amiga 1000: amount of RAM, power of the CPU, resolution and number of colours, number of sound channels and ... the price).
Then, like all computers, but starting from the launch year, the Archimedes saw its price dropping, year after year, but of course because the Archie was launched after the Amiga, it took more time to see the price decrease.

Even if you allegedly could buy 3 Amigas 500 (all in one system) for the price of one Archimedes (separate casing and keyboard) (and I'd like some evidence to prove that), you couldn't upgrade an Amiga 500 to the specs of the Archimedes AND be cheaper than an Archimedes. That's just facts : saying the opposite is denying facts and fanboyism.

A final note : no Zarch wasn't a BASIC interpreted program : it's ARM assembly code, but not fully using all the assembly instructions the ARM2 has (the ARM2 as found in the stock Archimedes available from June 1987), but only using the instructions set of the prototype ARM1, which lacks the ARM2 multiplication instructions.
The ARM has no division instruction, so you can imagine what it means if you write a 3D game with no division instruction AND no multiplication instruction ...
Still, running in a 256 colour screen mode, it runs 3 times faster than the Amiga conversion with only 16 or maybe 32 colours.

I don't say the Amiga wasn't an interesting machine for its price, after adding lots of expansions including a very expensive at the time hard drive.(something not absolutely necessary on the Archie because like the ST its OS is in ROM).

In fact to me the best value for money is the ST because it was really affordable.
What I dislike is the supremacist sect of Amiga owners who want to rewrite history to the glory of the Amiga, and obviously to do that needs to lie in every single statement they vomit to counterfeit the historical truth.
Atari 1040 STE+SATAN, 520ST, 800xl, xegs, Amiga 500, 2000 with 68020, Archimedes, RISC PCs + Iyonix, Omega, BBC B, Atom, Electron, ZX 81, Spectrum 48/128/+2/+3, Speccy2010, Russian clones, Sam Coupe, V6Z80P, QL with accelerators, Enterprise 128, Einstein inc 256, Oric Atmos, MSX 1, 2, Thomson MO5, Amstrads inc CPC+, C 16, 64, 128, VG5000, Apple IIGS and more ! Yes I want to create a museum when I retire.

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Re: Amiga @wikipedia - history

Postby 1st1 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:29 pm

Best value for money was 1040 ST and Amiga 500, both were affordable in 1987, Maybe also considering a few home PCs like Schneider Euro PC. The choice was if you want to play mostly games or doing something serious with your machine as well. That made the difference between ST and Amiga. The Archi was mostly out of both as the most games weren't published for it and no Signum, no Cubase, no Calamus for it. Even no MS-Word, no dBase, no Multiplan, no Lotus 1-2ö3 and such boring stuff which made some home users to choose a PC. The Archi was powerfull, but expensive and a niche system. Unfortunatelly, because it really was powerfull. Do you know how I call the Archi since a few years? "Father of all smartphones." :)
Power without the Price. It's not a bug. It's a feature. _/|\_ATARI

1040STFM in PC-Tower (PAK68/2, OvrScn, 4 MB, 1GB SCSI, CD-ROM...) * 2x Falcon 030 32GB/14MB+ScrnBlstrIII * 2x TT030 73GB/20MB+Nova * 520/1040STFM * 520/1040STE * 260/520ST/+ * some Mega ST * 2x Mega STE 500MB/4MB+M.CoCo * Stacy * STBook * SLM605 * SLM804 * SLM605 * SMM804 * SH 204/205 * Megafile 30/44/60 * SF314 * SF354 * 5x Pofo * PC3


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