How to lock/close thread ?

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How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:48 am

I thought that OP can ask for it, and then moderators will close it. But that worked not. Is there something I miss ?
Things gone here too far with couple of people, so I think that is better to close thread instead continuing useless arguing with stubborn people, who posting plenty off topic, who on top of it went in serious insulting.
Really not good impression for someone who comes here for the first time.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:07 am

One just locked, the other is still not. I sent report in both cases.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby Greenious » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:32 am

First: Moderators are doing this for free, on their spare time. Sometimes moderating takes longer because of it.

Second: We are not here to decide what is right or wrong, we are here to maintain a reasonably civil discussion. Ie, we will not ban or close threads because people are expressing the "wrong opinion", as long as it is done in a civil manner. Either you argue in a civil manner and try to convince your opponent he is wrong, or you move on and live with the fact that some people don't agree with your opinion.

Third: We are not here to protect you from your own mistakes. If you express yourself in a way that offends someone else and get a response in kind, you should be considering your own language instead of coming to us.

Fourth: Threads are closed when the moderators think it's past the point where civil discussion is possible. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes we need to talk it over first.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby mikro » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:39 am

Greenious wrote:We are not here to protect you from your own mistakes. If you express yourself in a way that offends someone else and get a response in kind, you should be considering your own language instead of coming to us.

Well said, you couldn't express my feelings from some of the threads better.

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:44 am

Well, since Greenious took effort and did longer explanation, what I appreciate, I will be free to write here my side - how I seen all this, and what I think about what is really important.

I do all this in my free time. Which sometimes is lot of free time, sometimes is not. I deal with digital electronic for some 40 years, with computers over 35.
So, first important thing is: I know what I write here. Computers and related are exact science. In most of cases there is no 'opinion' here, there are facts.
Constant argument is: let people to expose their opinion. Sure, and then let those who know it better to say: 'that's wrong', 'you are wrong'. I know, I'm now not modest at all, and that will be so in further text. So, if you don't like it hate me. I know what I talking about.
The real problems happen not because some bad tone, but because some act like spoiled child in case of being corrected. There is no nice way to say to someone that is wrong. You can waste ton of words, but they will get insulted. And then, the real insult may happen - because correction someone, saying that is wrong is not insult. It is helpful for normal people. Those others will make drama of it, and sooner or later there will be real insults - like in now closed thread.
Back to free time: it took some 6-8 hours only to solve that game Projectyle start on Atari Mega STE, and whatfor - how many of owners of that computers will play it ever, how many of them will thank me ? But I did it, because myself gave that as target for me. I spent some 2 weeks with Zone Warrior - first wasted days with bad crack, marked as 'fully working', then found good crack - doing again long file extraction process and other. And I did complain here, what Brume did not like. However, it resulted in that Stefan jL posted image of original - so, all I can say, it was worth to complain. Finally, I did all it again from original as source, compared all files with Replicants release - and yes, they did it well, all files are same.
Things go so slowly, that's what I want you to see.

"decide what is right or wrong,' - Well, I don't agree. There are many cases where is clear who is wrong and who is not. I did my best in that arguing with Miguel/Atariforever, and was certainly civilized. And them what ? He came with complain that I did not mention communism :D That was so absurd !
Reminding on Simbo case - I was in fight with him over years, just because he wrote blatant crap over and over again. For instance said that Satandisk handles internally FAT16 partitions. When I said that I know it better, since I made hard disk driver SW, he just said that he knows it better. And it went so far, that other people started realizing how Simbo is full of mistakes, how is arrogant, then ban, bad words ...
So, again, not humble, this day not for sure: I think that I'm who can see things faster than average people.

"We are not here to protect you from your own mistakes."
Absolutely agree. However. I, and again not humble I expected to be threaten little different after all my work done for Atari people, and more important, after I prove that I know things.
Mistake ? Was my mistake that I started 2 threads in Chat section, which were undermined then by Troed, Miguel ? It's like saying that Jodie Foster is responsible for death of John Lennon. Why she did not became an waitress instead an actress ? There is no way that someone can predict in what some thread will turn. Only to write nothing, say nothing. And then what - trolls won, and freedom of speech is actually good tool for abusers - they will always pull out that 'argument' when is good for them.

I will now open new thread, just to say something about Google again. If there will be same trolling, I will ask to close it again. But that will be last my post in chat section. And yes, I will know who to blame for that.
What is here at stake ? Right the mentioned freedom of speech. Those who don't like what I write, however have no any decent argument against will do everything to shut me down. What an absurd from propagators of alleged "free speech" .

Sorry for long post. But I feel that things need to be explained well.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby calimero » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:27 am

Why you simple do not ignore someone when you disagree with him?

If you see that he will not change his mind or opinion, just move on... Why "teraš mak na konac"? :D
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby troed » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:54 am

AtariZoll wrote:I know what I write here. Computers and related are exact science. In most of cases there is no 'opinion' here, there are facts


The problem is that sometimes you're wrong - and you are completely unable to admit it. Instead of doing so, you fight like mad to find some way out where you can still claim that you were right, in some way.

Example: You seem to believe your English is perfect. It isn't. It becomes laughable when you correct others, and when you're told that you're wrong you start complaining on the English language itself ...

AtariZoll wrote: because some act like spoiled child in case of being corrected


This applies to you more than anyone else I've seen on this forum. I have absolutely no hope that you will understand and reflect upon this, though.

AtariZoll wrote:I expected to be threaten little different after all my work done for Atari people


Your rudeness is singlehandedly causing people to avoid this forum. So, at which point is the net outcome negative rather than positive?

/Troed

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:21 am

calimero wrote:Why you simple do not ignore someone when you disagree with him?
If you see that he will not change his mind or opinion, just move on... Why "teraš mak na konac"? :D


Yes, that's why most of people do usually. But my state is that ignorance is not why we have forums. Forums are to exchange opinions, to share experiences. When I write here something, that's not just opinion, that's in most cases result of experience, and in many cases is result of huge effort, and plenty of time invested in it. And here we are at what I feel as biggest insult: someone jumps in with shallow opinion and expects same threatment. No, this is not voting, poll.
Furthermore, I consider forums as place not for killing time, or place where people come only when have some urgent problem to solve - like 'My STE stopped working, please help !!!!!!' - and then starts usually overlong remote repair session, which I just avoid - I had enough of it with customers who phoned me with 'very simple error, you surely can tell me what it is, no need to come here personally to see it' . Actually, problem is that time is too cheap - they could pay to some service man to fix it, but rather spend month here and do 30 postings.
Forums should be place where can learn something, ask help in cases when search helps not, in cases when poster really can not solve self.
But how to learn, when there are posts which claim wrong things ? Correcting someone is not rude, not competition (well for some it is, certainly) - it is just what someone feels that have to do, to keep this place sane. Think about all wasted zillions of hours people spent listening to wrong advice.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:23 am

troed wrote:Your rudeness is singlehandedly causing people to avoid this forum. So, at which point is the net outcome negative rather than positive?
/Troed

I decided to ignore most of your post. What I quoted is enough to see how * you are.
Another one on foe list.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby calimero » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:53 am

AtariZoll wrote:
calimero wrote:Why you simple do not ignore someone when you disagree with him?
If you see that he will not change his mind or opinion, just move on... Why "teraš mak na konac"? :D


Yes, that's why most of people do usually. But my state is that ignorance is not why we have forums. Forums are to exchange opinions, to share experiences.

Exactly. You state your opinion and that's it. No need to continue with persuasion.

AtariZoll wrote:When I write here something, that's not just opinion, that's in most cases result of experience, and in many cases is result of huge effort, and plenty of time invested in it.

Some people does not see you writing in this manner, but rather simple as your opinion.
I personally know you so I know that your knowledge is deep, but that is me, not all users.

AtariZoll wrote:And here we are at what I feel as biggest insult: someone jumps in with shallow opinion and expects same threatment. No, this is not voting, poll.

Well, you should get use on it. Have some empathy for "lesser" (joke!) human beings.

AtariZoll wrote:Furthermore, I consider forums as place not for killing time, or place where people come only when have some urgent problem to solve - like 'My STE stopped working, please help !!!!!!'

Again: 'you do not consider'. What about other users? I believe plenty of them consider forums 'as place not for killing time'.

AtariZoll wrote:Forums should be place where can learn something, ask help in cases when search helps not, in cases when poster really can not solve self.

Again: your opinion.
We are all different.
Learn to appreciate that fact and simple choose people that make you fell good.

I do not put people on ignore list, I accept them as they are.
(and here you can see that we are different ;))
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby mfro » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:20 am

AtariZoll wrote:I thought that OP can ask for it, and then moderators will close it. But that worked not. Is there something I miss ?

It appears there is some fundamental misunderstanding on how discussion forums work. You are apparently at the opinion that when you start a thread, it would be yours and you had the power to steer it into whatever direction you want it.

That's not how it works.

It's just as in real life: when you start discussing with people, they will have their own opinion and claim the same right than everybody else to express it. Even if it's incorrect from a purely objective or just from your own subjective view. There probably will be opinion-based, misinformed or outright false claims. That's the nature of all discussion, no matter if its virtual or real.

Everybody has the right to have his own opinion on things. I think you should be adult, wise and experienced enough to know that very well yourself.
Why don't you just let the readers decide on who is right or wrong as you would probably do in any real life discussion?

P.S.: I assume there is no question you are a recognized, experienced and merited expert in most Atari matters. Just note that this doesn't automatially make you an expert in everything.

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:28 am

Well, I don't like to do many things. I would like to talk with Troed as normal people talks. But all what he does in last times is jumping in, without even reading thread carefully, and then start to share his "wisement" (bad English, I know) - as we say here. And now it turned in personal. Heavy insults on top. And no one will complain about, because he is allowed, because he did some things for Atari community. Well, that hurts, and we have here clearly double standards. Not to mention that his recent activity is what ? And what is my recent activity ? Yes, we are different.
So, I did what see as best option. It is not about accepting - it is that he chases my threads and does inappropriate, off topic, insulting, arrogant smarthead type comments. Total useless and annoying.
Finally, I think that, that 'your opinion' is not so simple case. What I accomplished is result of some learning curve, not result of killing time in useless chit-chat. I learned plenty of things from other people. Some were far from being polite. But I focused on what they said, thought about, and often seen that they were right. So, I simply expect that from others.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:36 am

mfro wrote:...
Why don't you just let the readers decide on who is right or wrong as you would probably do in any real life discussion?
.... this doesn't automatially make you an expert in everything.

I can't command someone to decide something. I can only to say "my opinion' - and in that category belongs "you are wrong". As said, problem is childish reaction on it. Like your next sentence: "expert in everything" . Sorry to disappoint you, I don't think that I'm that. There is plenty of threads where I don't have what to say, because that topic, are is what I know not well, or not at all.
To add, you see it as: persona A says X, persona B says Y - and then everyone is happy, especially who asked what is correct, X or Y ?
And I say, that is is waste of time.
On top of it, if persona B comes with arguments, own experience about case, while persona A just start some "you are rude" blah, instead giving his argument, then it is pretty much clear case. Unfortunately it was much worse here on 2 closed threads. And will be here soon, it seems.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby mfro » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:01 am

AtariZoll wrote:...Like your next sentence: "expert in everything" . Sorry to disappoint you, I don't think that I'm that...


If I remember correctly, the original stumbling block was your opinion on how Youtube should deal with comments. Which caused a dispute about free speech that escalated. An absolutely unneccessary argument leading nowhere. From both sides, btw..

In such dispute, it's doesn't help to know Ataris inside out (and your merits do not count as well), the only thing that helps is common sense (and probably a good portion of serenity).

Youtube is owned by Google. Google is a profit-oriented company and there is only one single reason why they would change any policy whatsoever: optimization of their profit.

If you don't like that, don't use it. It's that simple.

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:00 pm

OK, honestly, I don't see the point to discuss with you, mfro, so this is my last reply to you, unless you correct self :
You come with advice. while completely missing what is written in that thread, what was the point:
So again I need longer blah: Even thread title shows that I liked what Google did there. And it was total obvious from my posts. And yet. you came with profit blah, "don't use" it ... That Spanish guy was who did not like it, option that video uploader can control comments. Really huge mistake from your side.
Then his ideas about free speech are total naive, childish, contrary to most accepted norms in Western civilization. And that's not 'my opinion' , that's what everyone with eyes can see. My arguments were to show him. where would lead if some forum, comment section allow everything.
For the end, something - I guess very bad from me: just came in mind, that I had user comment option here:
http://atari.8bitchip.info/ASTGA/9/10thFrame.php
Above link is just example - comments were at bottom. For every game page. Actually, they are still on server, host. only that I removed code for displaying them, and code for adding comments. And all it because 1-2 morons, who just posted there crap over crap, over months. While there was not much on topic comment. So, just did something what many WEB masters, admins do: choose simple, quick solution - removed all with 10 minute work,
What freedom of speech ? Yes, I'm for it, but first remove lunatics from streets, Internet.
I was not alone with it in last half year. IMDB removed their message board, what was pretty much visited, but turned into chaos.
Biggest Hungarian Internet news portal, with big sport sections removed all message boards, because some groups started total spamming of all board sections with some idiotic anti-government writings, of course total off topic, and it was just impossible to follow anything normal there.
This is where free speech lead. No thanks, I seen it. Instead closing forums, better would be to make some good working filtering, and that's what Google does, as I see. Unfortunately not all have time and resources, people for that.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:00 pm

I will give my opinion in clear use of freedom of expression, but I do not pretend to represent the personified truth: it is simply my opinion:
1- There is no "Total User", or I do not know it. It is very difficult to find in a single person a programmer, hardware engineer, sound technician, DTP specialist, advanced user of CAD, cartoonist, language teacher ... All levels and specialties coexist in peace in this forum, does not exist a militarized hierarchy that imposes one category or level on the others. The education is primordial, no one forces the sage to teach the ignorant, but neither can he mock the apprentice (in that case he must accept the answers in the same tone). Perhaps an Atari guru, programmer and hardware developer, knows a simple user who only used Atari for music since 1985; The musician only knows that, but his specialization can give him more specific knowledge: is one better than another? You have to make fun of him because he has never installed MiNT? You have to despise his opinion because it is different from yours?
2- Peter, you do not know or do not want to listen to anybody, I told you in PM that I regret arguing with you because I respect your work a lot (and I continue to respect it) and I am a person who admire all Atari gurus, but I can not admit an abuse or arrogance without answering accordingly. I know a lot of Atari gurus and in this forum I am getting to know more of them, I call them friendly "Druids", and they all have one thing in common: they have never insulted me, they have a lot of patience and answer the questions even if they are basic or tedious. Many people use your game adaptations with the Mega STe, and many people have bought your drivers that we never share (piracy) because we respect your work and also advertise. But that does not give you the right to make fun of anyone; If a sound engineer asks you "What is an AUTO folder" should I call it an idiot? (It's an invented example), you can help or ignore it, but do not mock or offend it. I play the clarinet, 40 years playing; If a new musician gives a wrong opinion about technique or other aspects, I give my opinion and try to help him (or I can ignore it, nobody forces me, of course), but I do not insist boasting of my knowledge nor do I call the moderators to censure whom I indicate.
3 - You continue to name some Spaniard; You know if Miguel is Spanish ?, you still believe that I am myself? (I would like to speak English like him). Well, at least already I am not an Australian and Amiga user...
4- Never everyone will agree, it is a characteristic of humans, but Atari users have been orphans for more than 30 years and we need to live together and help each other as much as possible, any loss of a mate is regrettable. Each of a country, habits, a mother ... but all are Atarians, that is the point.
5- I appreciate the fair view of the moderators of this forum, its coherence and rigor is admirable and a rare feature on the Internet.
Best regards.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:12 pm

There are a few people on this forum that have to argue with one another and try and one-up one another because they feel they are always right.

Winning an argument over the internet, whether on email or in a forum, virtually never happens.
It's entirely pointless to keep a thread alive by feeling the need to respond to whatever triggers us by a previous poster.
Because on and on it goes and usually off topic and bringing up other previous arguments between the two which honestly nobody but the two participants cares about. If after a couple of posts in a thread the other guy is not seeing things your way, move on, because they never will.

The whole thing is toxic and if I ran a forum with a few problem characters I'd just ban them from it because whatever knowledge they bring from time to time doesn't justify their behaviour the rest of the time and doesn't excuse it. The overall cost to the community is too high.

Some members here don't have English as their first language, and possibly fall into a trap that their words are not taken with the tone/meaning that they intended. It's impossible for native English speakers to pull it off, mis-understandings abound depending on the mindset of the person reading a message.
Add in a lower level of English competency and the problem is multiplied.

Then there are cultural differences.

On top of that, some high IQ people have low EQ. The stereotypical geek who can't communicate/play well with others and no matter their age haven't learnt how.

All of these possibilities are why we all need to learn to let some things go. Or let them go.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby Miguel » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:20 pm

Hi AtariZoll, I just want to let you know that just because I might disagree with you on the issue of free speech that doesn't mean that I don't respect you and I am sure there are lots of things we probably do agree on. For the record I only have one account on here so don't go confusing me for a whole other person.

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby Atarieterno » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:31 pm

Miguel wrote:Hi AtariZoll, I just want to let you know that just because I might disagree with you on the issue of free speech that doesn't mean that I don't respect you and I am sure there are lots of things we probably do agree on. For the record I only have one account on here so don't go confusing me for a whole other person.


Hi Miguel;
Is this a monologue? I'm talking in front of the mirror? ... everyone knows that you and I are the same person.
It's a joke, it's a joke !!
Please, if one day you have some time you can explain in which year you managed to record 16 audio tracks with a PC (you said that Pentium -1-), what sound card, hard disks, etc. To establish a parallelism with the Falcon's capabilities and the beginning of the PC as a reliable tool (?) In the sound studio.
Greetings.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby lp » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:43 pm

Enabling comments on youtube is pointless. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that comments invite trouble makers. It's possible to disable them entirely, that's what I do. Problem solved.

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby Miguel » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:51 pm

Atarieterno wrote:Hi Miguel;
Is this a monologue? I'm talking in front of the mirror? ... everyone knows that you and I are the same person.
It's a joke, it's a joke !!
Please, if one day you have some time you can explain in which year you managed to record 16 audio tracks with a PC (you said that Pentium -1-), what sound card, hard disks, etc. To establish a parallelism with the Falcon's capabilities and the beginning of the PC as a reliable tool (?) In the sound studio.
Greetings.


Hello me... :lol:

Sure thing, I will dig up whatever I can find of that old system and let you know in the processor thread where I first mentioned it.

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:50 pm

OK. As I see things calmed down here a bit. Don't know why, did my long writings have some effect - if anyone read them.
We basically want same thing - keeping old Ataris, that line and SW for it alive. Doing some new solutions. That's not easy.
Everyone like support, feedback, even bug reports. And of course hate when someone spams there. Unfortunately, things on this planet go in wrong direction. This forum has too several instruments against unwanted posts, spammers. And yet, nobody from them found to say anything in defense of posting restrictions.
Anyway, back to my usual business - game adaptations, fixings, and like. Folks, you are free to participate in testings. This is real shame how some games were online over 10 years, and nobody reported issues. We can do it better. Testing games is fun.
English language is like bad boss on workplace: it expecting from you to strictly follow all, numerous rules, but self bending rules as much likes :mrgreen:

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby wongck » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:59 pm

Hate it. Hate it.
When someone masquerade as someone else to get what they wanted.
Unfortunately always happening everywhere on the Net.
Especially when an account is so easily obtainable.
Even more difficult accounts needing SIM card it happens, I seen people who uses spare/dummy SIM cards to get 1st ride benefits on Uber and Lyft.
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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:13 am

EmpireAndrew wrote:Some members here don't have English as their first language, and possibly fall into a trap that their words are not taken with the tone/meaning that they intended. It's impossible for native English speakers to pull it off, mis-understandings abound depending on the mindset of the person reading a message.
Add in a lower level of English competency and the problem is multiplied.
Then there are cultural differences.
On top of that, some high IQ people have low EQ. The stereotypical geek who can't communicate/play well with others and no matter their age haven't learnt how.
All of these possibilities are why we all need to learn to let some things go. Or let them go.

This reminded me some things. Language problem is mentioned here many times. And I think that it is overestimated. Misunderstandings happen often among people wits same native language, or as we here say, same mother language. Common reason is for instance just that someone uses not usual phrase, usual word order. Even more common is the different knowledge level of participants. I wrote some articles for computer magazines around 1990-2000. And of course, they edited my text. But in many cases then original meaning went lost. Just because editor did not understand topic, was in rush. And here is the point: exactly same happens here . So, not the language, but lack of will to understand is then main problem here. On the other side, they insist for free speech, regardless from quality of it, to say so. This is what kills the forum.
And then worse: some just seek where can find some excuse to attack poster, just because don't like him, his opinion. That's deeply personal, and even against forum rules, and yet, I don't see any warnings for them (including this thread).
And to add, what I quoted is typical geek, nerd talk :D
Back to language problem: in our East EU. languages, and I speak 2 of them on mother language level, word order is pretty much flexible. And I, people using it to better accent what want to say. In English it is pretty different, but as we know, you can talk out of order, and being understandable. Example: Star Wars superhero Yoda :D Actually, English language is like bad boss on workplace: it expecting from you to strictly follow all numerous rules, but self bending rules as much wants :mrgreen:
English language is like bad boss on workplace: it expecting from you to strictly follow all, numerous rules, but self bending rules as much likes :mrgreen:

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Re: How to lock/close thread ?

Postby calimero » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:35 am

^ Please not again!

So you wrote text and two (possible) things happened:
1) editor did not understand topic
2) readers have lack of will to understand

and there is no 3) options that you maybe did not wrote text as good as it was possible?

This kind of reasoning perfectly describe you and what annoy other people.


And second main problem, language, or way it is written, is the main point of misunderstanding, believe me. I can exactly say when someone misunderstood what you wrote. I witnessed this situations over years at this forum. I know what you want to say, but some did not. It is understandable since we both speak two east eu languages and have more in common then e.g. spanish :D (joke!)
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