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Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:28 am
by mpattonm
...for everyone, or just me?

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:57 am
by catmando
Everyone, see the wiki thread.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:17 pm
by calimero
catmando wrote:Everyone, see the wiki thread.

where is wiki thread?

and what happen to wiki?

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:02 pm
by calimero
Still down?

Who hosting and maintain it?

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:50 pm
by wongck
Dal

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:06 pm
by calimero
ah, ok. Than it will be fine :)

@Dal, what went wrong with wiki ? :)

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:22 pm
by lp
From what I was told the data is intact, but the display layer is having some issue. If you hit view source, you can see that is true.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:56 pm
by wongck
Is a lot of ppl missing the wiki ?

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:24 pm
by mikro
wongck wrote:Is a lot of ppl missing the wiki ?

Not sure if trolling or... ;) Yes, I do miss it. Only during last two weeks I hit it three times when googling for something.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:56 am
by rpineau
Yes we do miss it :)

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:09 am
by Bama
wongck wrote:Is a lot of ppl missing the wiki ?


I am missing it.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:46 am
by Arawn
I miss it too. Need to check some info on ROM replacement...

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:38 am
by calimero
Atari wiki is definitively value source of information...

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:38 am
by wongck
No not trolling..... just wondering. :mrgreen:
About 5 years back I did loads of work on the Wiki, beautifying it, categorising all the pages so that it is searchable, converting texts pages to wiki format pages and started transferring good information from this forum to the Wiki (under FAQ). I was even patrolling the pages. :wink:
Not sure if that was any use to anyone. So it is great to know that someone finds it useful.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:24 pm
by catmando
calimero wrote:Atari wiki is definitively value source of information...


+1

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:32 pm
by EmpireAndrew
This needs to be at least mirrored imho.

While it's great having the information in one place so it can easily be found, there is a well known risk to having all your eggs in one basket...

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:20 pm
by calimero
EmpireAndrew wrote:This needs to be at least mirrored imho.

While it's great having the information in one place so it can easily be found, there is a well known risk to having all your eggs in one basket...

Entire Web is BIGGEST piece of poo (even bigger than Microsoft Office and Windows) that human ever made.

If today 18 years teenager should design Web, it would be surely much better than this endless 404, one-way links... complete mess.

As IBM and Apple (same goes for Atari and Commodore) made dumb, dumb version of what computer should be
on same way Tim Berns Lee made dumb, dumb version of what Web should (and MUST) be. ("dumb, dumb" here is in extremely pejorative way)

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:38 pm
by mpattonm
wongck wrote:Is a lot of ppl missing the wiki ?

OMG I do!

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:17 pm
by lp
I was helping the main programmer of RECOIL improve his ST support went it crapped out by overhauling the ST Picture Format wiki page. Having no local backup freaked me out initially as I thought it was all lost, but Dal assured me it was not and he is correct. If you are desperate you can hit view source tab and find what you need, although messy looking but better than nothing.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:38 am
by mikro
calimero wrote:As IBM and Apple (same goes for Atari and Commodore) made dumb, dumb version of what computer should be
on same way Tim Berns Lee made dumb, dumb version of what Web should (and MUST) be. ("dumb, dumb" here is in extremely pejorative way)

I think you're very unfair to history here. It's like complaining that 1970s mainframes did not pose the features which current Oracle or whatever databases do. Or that BASIC doesn't offer the equal comfort of programming as Java or C#.

Of course, if the web was about to emerge now, it would have been versioned, decentralised, self-replicated... something like git with multimedia. :) What is by the way already happening, see http://web.archive.org.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:07 am
by EmpireAndrew
calimero wrote:Entire Web is BIGGEST piece of poo (even bigger than Microsoft Office and Windows) that human ever made.

If today 18 years teenager should design Web, it would be surely much better than this endless 404, one-way links... complete mess.


There were very specific, good reasons the web was built the way it was.
At least the initial concept. The whole point is that it's ope and decentralised.
They considered a central links database to avoid 404's etc but realised it didn't scale and there was the issue of who would control it.
And everyone could serve up hyperlinked docs from their machine to anyone, with HTML web pages designed to be a common language if needs be.
That's all it was for.

What caused problems were people deciding to do commerce over it, turning it into online stores and bolting on security for that.
Then you had the 90s browser wars of proprietary tags first by Netscape then by Microsoft in order to try and capture the browser market. Tim Berners Lee was not happy with this. As consumers we let them get away with it just as we let Google get away with controlling everything. Laziness and not considering the bigger picture.

Then we got plugins, and flash and javascript which ballooned into this horrible monster of frameworks so people could build entire apps in a browser instead of making apps for computers and phones in a client.server manner to servers out on the web like they should (thank goodness for the Appke App Store I say which encourages real apps vs website based apps).

This article amuses me as I'm with him 100%:
http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm

calimero wrote:As IBM and Apple (same goes for Atari and Commodore) made dumb, dumb version of what computer should be
on same way Tim Berns Lee made dumb, dumb version of what Web should (and MUST) be. ("dumb, dumb" here is in extremely pejorative way)



Not sure what you mean there...
What should a computer be?
As far as I'm concerned Apple should have won the PC war for business and Atari should have won it for the home.
And I like the Raspberry Pi with Linux on it as frankly most computers are way overpowered.

My concern over the web is that we are all becoming consumers.
In the early days it was about creation,lots of homepages and so on. Now everyone just makes a Facebook page.
And on that note, the web is becoming Google and Facebook. Not good.
And instead of hosting services from thousands of providers AWS and the like are becoming too big.

We're putting too much power in the hands of too few. As we always seem to do...

This is against the original intention of the internet and the web.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:07 am
by calimero
mikro wrote:
calimero wrote:As IBM and Apple (same goes for Atari and Commodore) made dumb, dumb version of what computer should be
on same way Tim Berns Lee made dumb, dumb version of what Web should (and MUST) be. ("dumb, dumb" here is in extremely pejorative way)

I think you're very unfair to history here. It's like complaining that 1970s mainframes did not pose the features which current Oracle or whatever databases do. Or that BASIC doesn't offer the equal comfort of programming as Java or C#.


No, it is not like that.
Future was already here, it is not Amiga :D but e.g. Alan Kay and Smalltalk presentation and Douglas Engelbarts NLS; but entire computer world go on PAPER PRITING path! Everything in computer was submitted to paper printing, this is true even today; after 40 years of personal computers! *

mikro wrote:Of course, if the web was about to emerge now, it would have been versioned, decentralised, self-replicated... something like git with multimedia. :)

Everything that Ted Nelson envisioned with Xanadu.
T.B. Lee Web was cut down version, with shpageti mix of content and command and presentation code, all in same layer!

If Web had two way-links integrated, than Google would not exit today at all! Google capitalize on uncompleted (or more precise: stupid) design of Web.

mikro wrote:What is by the way already happening, see http://web.archive.org.

web.archive.org is very sad consequence of uncompleted design of Web also.
We build tremendous infrastructure just to absorb stupidity and shortsighted design of Web.

How Web was implemented have great social implication on today civilization!
Great talk on subject was given by Jaron Lanier

and another great talk: The Web That Wasn't by Alex Wright


* Instead, computer should be extension of our mind - we do not need files and applications for manipulating over file data. We should have data and one platform for manipulating with all data - just like SmallTalk did. Look what we have today: e.g. iTunes or iPhoto (name any similar apps here) as interface to access specific metadata for Music files or Photo files. It is crazy. OS should provide this functionality and much, much more!
but we can discus when we meet again :) with Rakija or Borovicka :D

btw I should really make one page intro with explanation What Went Wrong with WWW ...

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:35 am
by calimero
EmpireAndrew wrote:
calimero wrote:Entire Web is BIGGEST piece of poo (even bigger than Microsoft Office and Windows) that human ever made.

If today 18 years teenager should design Web, it would be surely much better than this endless 404, one-way links... complete mess.


There were very specific, good reasons the web was built the way it was.
At least the initial concept. The whole point is that it's open and decentralised.

No. Web is not open. It is a fornicating mess.
Even his creator, T.B.Lee SCREAM 'give us your data', now when he understood what he created.

If Web, and computers, are really open, than we would have Cure for cancer because there will be no possibility to kept data only for yourself.


EmpireAndrew wrote:They considered a central links database to avoid 404's etc but realised it didn't scale and there was the issue of who would control it.
And everyone could serve up hyperlinked docs from their machine to anyone, with HTML web pages designed to be a common language if needs be.
That's all it was for.

Exactly. T.B. Lee Web was dumb, dumb implementation of far more thoughtful Xanadu.

EmpireAndrew wrote:What caused problems were people deciding to do commerce over it, turning it into online stores and bolting on security for that.
Then you had the 90s browser wars of proprietary tags first by Netscape then by Microsoft in order to try and capture the browser market. Tim Berners Lee was not happy with this. As consumers we let them get away with it just as we let Google get away with controlling everything. Laziness and not considering the bigger picture.

Exactly!

btw while on topic ("controlling everything"), did you read Mark Zuckerberg manifest over future of society and planet? https://www.facebook.com/notes/mark-zuc ... 292806634/

EmpireAndrew wrote:This article amuses me as I'm with him 100%:
http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm

Thanks for sharing! I just start to read and see that there is lot of conclusion that I also agree 100%.

calimero wrote:As IBM and Apple (same goes for Atari and Commodore) made dumb, dumb version of what computer should be
on same way Tim Berns Lee made dumb, dumb version of what Web should (and MUST) be. ("dumb, dumb" here is in extremely pejorative way)


Not sure what you mean there...
What should a computer be?
As far as I'm concerned Apple should have won the PC war for business and Atari should have won it for the home.
And I like the Raspberry Pi with Linux on it as frankly most computers are way overpowered.

No, no, no. Best and most profound way to see how computer should work is Alan Kay presentation of SmallTalk system here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrlSqtpOkw (please watch entire video).



calimero wrote:My concern over the web is that we are all becoming consumers.
In the early days it was about creation,lots of homepages and so on. Now everyone just makes a Facebook page.
And on that note, the web is becoming Google and Facebook. Not good.
And instead of hosting services from thousands of providers AWS and the like are becoming too big.

We're putting too much power in the hands of too few. As we always seem to do...

This is against the original intention of the internet and the web.

Agree. Because I said that Web is not Open at beginning of this post!

And we must do something. Build new system that would give same opportunity to all people.*
We, users, have only limited access to our data that Google collected - access over rudimental interface that Google gave us at www.google.com
On Youtube you can not even search for your previous posts!
On Facebook you have your own bubble and there is no way to meaningful search any data on Facebook.

*(there is so much things: if you pay, than google will hide unwanted page about you, but only if you can AFFORD to pay! first 2 min.)

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:34 pm
by StanZ
wongck wrote:Not sure if that was any use to anyone. So it is great to know that someone finds it useful.


I do! I could use google cache but I really hope it's back soon.

Re: Is Atari wiki down?

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:38 pm
by wongck
:D Wow.. great to know so many are using it.
Guess I will do some house-keeping on the wiki when it's up. :wink: