Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

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AtariZoll
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Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:48 am

Inspired by success of suggestion for Sequencer section, I want to suggest starting special section for Atari SW preservation and related. We have already subsections dealing with preservation in Emulators and Tools section. Pasti & Vapi, Kryoflux, SCP ... All it would feel much better in some section named like "Atari SW preservation" . Including "Floppy disk preservation" :D
After all it is not emulation and not some tool in fact (even if use tools for purpose) .
What should be added is my "obsession" - validation, testing of preserved, imaged, modded, enhanced, bugfixed titles, of course games in first place.
That subsection should have title like "Validation, testing" - what is something somehow not being popular, except in cases when someone encounters problems. But we really should take care more about quality than quantity - later will come by time.
Just to add that I plan soon to start dedicated WEBpage for that purpose, where people can add own experiences and links for good, proven sources and like. That will not include forum - we have them already, but popular forum can help in it. And of course, can help to fix some problematic cases, dig out some dusty originals.
Even if some consider cracks, hard disk adaptations not as preservation, I think that they should be part of that section too. Actually, later only. Special subsection about cracks seems not up to date (and that sounds not good, of course), but any useful infos in Validation section about will be useful .
Last edited by AtariZoll on Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby exxos » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:06 am

Which also makes me think there really should be a better section for peoples websites in general. qq1975b did a post with current hardware progress by people, but that post is not easy to find. Probably should be a sticky somewhere as he generally does try to keep it updated.
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby Dal » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:38 pm

We have one already dedicated to preservation:

viewforum.php?f=104
FireBee, Falcon -Soundpool case: CT63@95Mhz + 14MB/512MB + 16GB SSD + FPU + Phantom 25/50 + SuperVidel + SoundPool FDI + FA8 + ADAT + Eiffel, TT030: 4MB/16MB + Crazy Dots, Mega"SST" 12, STbook, STacy 2, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's

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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:16 pm

Dal wrote:We have one already dedicated to preservation:

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewforum.php?f=104


Yes, I mentioned it here. But it is not in proper section - that's not emulator or tool . And that subsection deals mostly with ways how to do imaging, related SW. What we really need is place easy to find, where people can talk about diverse images available online and their goodness or not goodness. And of course that would be perfect place for KryFlux, SCP subsections ...

P.S. just to add that preservation is not only "Floppy Disk Preservation" . Imaging is what is already much more used than writing faithful copies on floppies - because floppies and drives become more and more obsolete and unreliable. Their time is near to end. Fact is that most of people using emulators. People owning real HW using more and more HxC floppy emulator and mass storage, not to mention CosmosEx :D HW clones like MIST use HW floppy emulation too in some way.
Regardless from format and media used. all we want proven images/copies which will last. This is just something what was not handled properly during almost 3 decades. Time to try with some new approach: testing, sharing experiences. There is lot of bad stuff around, and nobody except few people is taking care. Their experiences are just not accessible in proper way.
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby farvardin » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:19 pm

talking about MiST, there are only .ST image that are working for me, things like .stx are completely useless on my system (mist or hatari on linux)

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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:38 pm

I will try it once again: suggested change is really easy to do, and will not change much in forum layout.
There will be still section named Emulators and tools with: Steem, Hatari, Saint, Other emulators and tools - probably would be better to add just general subsection instead other tools, since there are no tools above. HxC, CosmosEx .
Preservation section should include:
General ... , Pasti (Vapi is not used, really) , KryoFlux, Supercard .. , Floppy disk preservation . Then: Missing images .
Note that we have it now in floppy disk preservation, but things are that images are not same as floppy disk preservation, because Pasti images are not writable. And most chances are that someone will post Pasti image, because it needs only ST(E) .

I really would like that this will be not ignored, and if can not accept proposition give some explanation. (Not pointing on something obvious) I'm in this over 8 years in new Atari retro era, and about 25 years overall. People like DrCoolZic and Istvan Fabian, JimDrew did amazing job in floppy preservation, but there are other ways which will result in same: working SW without anything relevant changed. So far we had good cowork, and I hope that it will continue, because all it may be complementary - Pasti images and emulators helped in many cases to understand flux images. And again: future is in images, not floppies.
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby Melies » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:19 pm

Quite new in this community, but generally speaking regarding preservation, I think I am with Pera on this, future seems to be more in images...

Concerning the MIST, the current firmware only support *.ST images, not *.STX (maybe in the future, but only Till can answer that).
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby Dal » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:53 pm

Sorry - I'm not avoiding this, I've had a monumentally busy weekend (gigs on Saturday and Sunday, then packing down yesterday ready to do it all again this weekend).

So I've not had the chance to really think about this - as mentioned, there are already very similar sections so I can already see how easy it would be for someone to post in the wrong forum.

IF (I say 'IF') we do this, then I'd want the initial post in each thread to follow a structure, preferably using a form rather than free text. This way everything is being handled in the same way. I think one of the key issues is that there are 100's of games on your site alone so you'll end up with everyone testing "SuperCars 2" and nobody testing "Postman Pat 3" because left to their own free will, people will only want to test and play games they already know or feel compelled to play. So, this would have to be done in a way whereby there is a small list of games that we are focusing on at any one time.

To my mind, there would be two useful sub-sections:
The first sub-section for images that need to be tested so you (or anybody else interested) could post titles that need testing by people. There can only be 10 open threads at any one time. This may have the added benefit of inspiring people to play games they might not have done otherwise. Once a game has been tested by say 5 different people successfully, the thread is closed. We'd also have to think of a way in which we could be sure a game has been tested to a reasonable level (perhaps for each game, a brief testing criteria needs to be proposed).

A second sub-section for reporting issues with particular images with a submission form to collate all the required data in the correct way first time. Once the image has been fixed, it is posted to the first sub forum for testing (or re-testing). This gives closure to everything that comes through.

There are other considerations which we will discuss privately but I think your motives are good and it would be a good idea to do as much of this as we can while there is still a chance of being able to locate working disks if needed (oh and while we're still young enough!).
FireBee, Falcon -Soundpool case: CT63@95Mhz + 14MB/512MB + 16GB SSD + FPU + Phantom 25/50 + SuperVidel + SoundPool FDI + FA8 + ADAT + Eiffel, TT030: 4MB/16MB + Crazy Dots, Mega"SST" 12, STbook, STacy 2, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's

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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby Faucon2001 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:10 pm

I like the idea, but why limiting it to games and not extending it to general apps ?
I am willing to contribute for apps preservation and eventually share some space on my server.

Just another question, may be out of the topic, why in the Emulator section there is nothing specific about Aranym?
I believe that this is an important software that will deserve it's own section instead of falling into others.
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby Dal » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:22 pm

I agree - it should probably be generic and cover all SW. Point taken regarding Aranym - I think this has been brought up before and can't remember why nothing happened (it could be simply I never got around to it).
FireBee, Falcon -Soundpool case: CT63@95Mhz + 14MB/512MB + 16GB SSD + FPU + Phantom 25/50 + SuperVidel + SoundPool FDI + FA8 + ADAT + Eiffel, TT030: 4MB/16MB + Crazy Dots, Mega"SST" 12, STbook, STacy 2, MegaSTE, STE: Desktopper case, IDE interface, UltraSatan (8GB + 512Mb) + HXC floppy emulator. Plus some STE's/STFM's

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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby Faucon2001 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:37 pm

Thanks :D
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Re: Suggestion for forum section dedicated to preservation

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:57 am

I have few free days currently, so take chance to add here some arguments, ideas:
I still see threads and receive e-mails with basic questions about floppy imaging. There is new people wanting to contribute in preservation, and they need some guidance about how to image floppies and where to upload it.
So, I'm sure that there should be right at top some sticky thread about how to perform imaging. Up to date, so including Kryo and SCP. I saw today Wiki page about floppy imaging, and must say that it is terribly outdated, and there are some errors too. It needs update. I will do it if nobody else will soon. What it missing is some good Atari SW for imaging + Kryo, SCP .
Coordinating diverse sites holding diverse images is something almost impossible, but we should have at least some overview and be aware about their policy. As storage is very cheap now, I'm on that sites should hold diverse uploads from diverse people of same title/release. Just because it as additional safety for case that some image appears as not flawless. Validation is what should decide which images are OK, and which not. Will not go now into it, that's really not something simple.
So, as said already there should be general section for preservation, where should be at top thread about how to do imaging. And thread about where to upload images, with explanations. All it is already present here and there, but newcomers will not see it for sure as is now. Probably best would be to point on this 2 things in section title. Something like: General preservation, guides about imaging, hosts ..
I'm not against GMO, I'm against that children play with fire.


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