Editing a message

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Re: Editing a message

Postby mikro » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:06 am

spiny wrote:
GokMasE wrote:In essence, you are terminating an appreciated and frequently used feature, to prevent something that has happened.. ..never..?

This does not compute.



It has happened, this change is to prebvent it happening again.

Spiny (and other administrators): but don't you think that it should be users who decide whether some feature is abused enough? I mean, I have never ever noticed any post post-edited which would make me think "oh, this is unfortunate, I wish the edits were forbidden to prevent this". I'm fairly sure that all of us here (in this thread at least) share the same point of view. If somemething is misused and people are upset you notice it, heavily (case in point: Ppera's posts, xenophobic/sexistic posts etc).

So now you are trying to prevent something, which according to you, did happen but nobody has noticed it, nobody has complainined about it and worst of all, this counter-measure is making a huge wave of disapproval. I think your reasoning is not correct here.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:16 am

spiny wrote:
dhedberg wrote:or are you just bluntly going to keep your unwanted change and pretend that you're doing it for the good of the users? Sigh!

yes.


Nice. So you are just ignoring any arguments, punishing the whole community for something that had happened only a few times.

Say goodbye to a bunch of users.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby czietz » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:32 am

spiny wrote:It has happened, this change is to prebvent it happening again.


Simonsunnyboy's statement earlier in this thread seems to suggest that the main reason for the change was abuse of that feature, but in a different forum. (Quoting him: "Possible abuse as on atari-home.de was the main reason".) Is that true or not?

PS: It's sad that my 1000th post in this forum is not to share some Atari knowledge but to discuss this policy change...

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Re: Editing a message

Postby Zippy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:44 am

If posts can at least be edited for a few hours after posting I don't think it's so bad. In the few cases that I've edited old posts it wouldn't have been a big problem to flag them for a mod and I'm sure the edit would have been done as requested. For someone continually updating the first post of a thread with new info I can see it's more of an issue though.

I can see both sides... the mod's are trying to protect historical posts that could be useful to everyone, for example if someone is banned from posting or leaves the forum on bad terms they could delete all their old posts and potentially a lot of good info. could be permanently lost.

On the other hand if someone wants to do that maybe it's their right to do so? Of course as individual posters we want the maximum freedom but it's the job of the mod's to act on behalf of the forum as a whole and maybe sometimes that means limiting our freedom a little if it makes the forum a more useful resource for all.

Maybe allowing only one edit per day (or per week) of old posts would be a compromise, but probably the forum software wouldn't support that.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby catmando » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:18 pm

spiny wrote:
Posts are editable for 6 hours, so plenty of time to fix typos / broken links / image attachments etc.



Happy with the overall change as it stops threads becoming confusing, but can it be changed to at least be 24 hours, 6 hours seems a bit restrictive to me. When I do get on here, which isn't often I usually only have time for one visit per day.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby spiny » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:31 pm

catmando wrote:
spiny wrote:
Posts are editable for 6 hours, so plenty of time to fix typos / broken links / image attachments etc.



Happy with the overall change as it stops threads becoming confusing, but can it be changed to at least be 24 hours, 6 hours seems a bit restrictive to me. When I do get on here, which isn't often I usually only have time for one visit per day.


sounds reasonable, I'll check with the other mods.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby cb » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:10 pm

Well, what would be reasonable would be to actually listen to forum users, some of them who seem to be on the verge of leaving this place because of that new limitation, and revert the change. Bring back the editing feature back guys, you know it's the right thing to do! :)
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Re: Editing a message

Postby jury » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:20 pm

mikro wrote:So now you are trying to prevent something, which according to you, did happen but nobody has noticed it, nobody has complainined about it and worst of all, this counter-measure is making a huge wave of disapproval. I think your reasoning is not correct here.


Yes, its at least funny ...

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Re: Editing a message

Postby wongck » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:06 am

jury wrote:Yes, its at least funny ...


Ha ha ha
what is funny here is that I think that the Atari community here just do not want to loose out to others and have their fair share of protest... like others in country where the government tried to introduce a change and the whole country just protested and having massive riots/destruction.....
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Re: Editing a message

Postby mfro » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:53 am

Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion, I personally belief that locking posts after a certain time - whatever the original targets might have been - is a good thing to have.

Not so much because of the (potential) dangers someone would/could render answers to nonsense by modification of the original post (which appears to be the original motivation for the change) but because you don't get any notification about changes. People seem to believe their original post would be the most important one in a thread while I am at the strong opinion it is the last one that counts. Just because that one is the one I get notified about in the 'New Posts' quick search.

I usually read threads backwards because the end is news while the start is history. If you find yourself requiring to edit the original post, why don't you just re-post the original, including any corrections you find necessary? It will then appear in the 'New Posts' search and people will get notified. If you had modified the original post, your change most likely will go unnoticed. I often find myself missing news just because the OP edited the original and did not leave a note about it. If there is a note ('I have edited the original post'), I am expected to waste time searching for it while I had the news right away if the OP had re-posted at the end instead.

Whats left is the awkward (subjective) feeling of enforced restriction of personal freedom. That could have certainly been avoided by better communication.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby mikro » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:12 am

mfro: but this could be easily avoided - you just post "I have updated the original list with XY" and you get both - the first post containing all information + your "news entry" with notification.

As for why to edit the first post, I can imagine a couple of reasons: 1.) it is common practice for years now 2.) when you search for something, it's much, much easier to look in the first post first (heh) and then perhaps scan for changes vs. going to the last post, realising that 20 last posts are totally offtopic and only to end up by the first post 3.) thread can be locked for new posts 4.) I'm pretty sure if I thought about this for more than 10 seconds I could think of many others. :)

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Re: Editing a message

Postby joska » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:41 am

mfro wrote:If you had modified the original post, your change most likely will go unnoticed.


Correct, and personally I find it very annoying when people do this. Even worse - the last post only says "first post updated" and when you look at the first post you have no idea what has been updated.

Yes, I can see many reasons for allowing post editing. Correcting typos, removing personal information and so. I'm running a phpBB forum myself, and so far I've allowed unlimited post editing. This requires some discipline from the users (when editing your post, also write a note saying *what* you changed, and also be very careful about what you change) but so far it has worked well. But this feature has to be used with care - this is a *discussion forum*, it's not a wiki. If the users does not get this then I don't see the problem in disabling this feature.

One small example of annoying post editing is this thread. It's getting confusing already in the second post, because the first post has been heavily edited.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby 607 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:45 am

spiny wrote:We made the change to prevent abuse. While the amount of times its happened is small, the change was made to prevent it happening again.

The ideal solution is to have shadow copies / versioning of posts, so that if something questionable happens, mods/admins would be able to see what edits had been made, and highlight or revert them. But the current forum version does not support this. If that ever becomes available, we'll set that up instead.

Posts are editable for 6 hours, so plenty of time to fix typos / broken links / image attachments etc.

If you desperatly need to edit a post, please use the report options, it's really no bother and you won't get 'in trouble'

Otherwise, just quote your own post and add the new info as you see fit - this has the benefit of bumping your thread too, so will potentially show it to a wider audience.

That makes sense! Thanks for the information.
It's also good to know posts are editable for a while, shortly after making your post.
:cheers:

I think points made by others were addressed by other others well already, so here ends my post. ;)

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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:03 am

mfro wrote:If you find yourself requiring to edit the original post, why don't you just re-post the original, including any corrections you find necessary?


Because that updated post gets quickly lost in all the other blurb that is posted afterwards in the thread.

If there is a note ('I have edited the original post'), I am expected to waste time searching for it


But it is the other way around. If there was a note, then you get notified about it, and all you have to do is look at the first post. Now, without being able to do that, you have to scan through the whole thread to find the last update. That's extremely annoying.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby catmando » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:04 am

mfro wrote:Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion, I personally belief that locking posts after a certain time - whatever the original targets might have been - is a good thing to have.



Not a fan of locking posts because you just end up with a lot of repetition, sometimes responding to an old thread brings back people who've been out of the loop for a while
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Re: Editing a message

Postby ThorstenOtto » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:38 pm

Maybe someone of the admins should take a look at https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/ I think that could solve at least some of the problems.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby wongck » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:18 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:Maybe someone of the admins should take a look at https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/ I think that could solve at least some of the problems.

Wow... looks like the first posting is really important and they already have a fix to make it better !
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Re: Editing a message

Postby mfro » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:21 pm

mikro wrote:mfro: but this could be easily avoided - you just post "I have updated the original list with XY" and you get both - the first post containing all information + your "news entry" with notification.

As for why to edit the first post, I can imagine a couple of reasons: 1.) it is common practice for years now 2.) when you search for something, it's much, much easier to look in the first post first (heh) and then perhaps scan for changes vs. going to the last post, realising that 20 last posts are totally offtopic and only to end up by the first post 3.) thread can be locked for new posts 4.) I'm pretty sure if I thought about this for more than 10 seconds I could think of many others. :)


As Joska said: all of your points would be perfectly valid if we talked about a Wiki. We don't.

This is a discussion forum, and IMHO, discussions have to stay sequential (in RL as well as in a forum), otherwise they easily become insane.
You can't just reverse the argument you brought up yesterday (i.e. travel back in time and edit yesterdays post), while you can of course change your mind and have a different opinion today which you add to the discussion (state the opposite in a new post).

I personally find it somehow self-evident for a forum to follow this real-life 'space-time continuum restrictions'.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby catmando » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:46 pm

mfro wrote:
mikro wrote:mfro: but this could be easily avoided - you just post "I have updated the original list with XY" and you get both - the first post containing all information + your "news entry" with notification.

As for why to edit the first post, I can imagine a couple of reasons: 1.) it is common practice for years now 2.) when you search for something, it's much, much easier to look in the first post first (heh) and then perhaps scan for changes vs. going to the last post, realising that 20 last posts are totally offtopic and only to end up by the first post 3.) thread can be locked for new posts 4.) I'm pretty sure if I thought about this for more than 10 seconds I could think of many others. :)


As Joska said: all of your points would be perfectly valid if we talked about a Wiki. We don't.

This is a discussion forum, and IMHO, discussions have to stay sequential (in RL as well as in a forum), otherwise they easily become insane.
You can't just reverse the argument you brought up yesterday (i.e. travel back in time and edit yesterdays post), while you can of course change your mind and have a different opinion today which you add to the discussion (state the opposite in a new post).

I personally find it somehow self-evident for a forum to follow this real-life 'space-time continuum restrictions'.


100% agree
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Re: Editing a message

Postby dhedberg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:40 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:Maybe someone of the admins should take a look at https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/ I think that could solve at least some of the problems.

Yes! That would be a perfect trade-off between unlimited editing and our wish to be able to edit the first post, but unfortunately I doubt any admin will bother...
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Re: Editing a message

Postby GokMasE » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:39 pm

dhedberg wrote:
ThorstenOtto wrote:Maybe someone of the admins should take a look at https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... tpostedit/ I think that could solve at least some of the problems.

Yes! That would be a perfect trade-off between unlimited editing and our wish to be able to edit the first post, but unfortunately I doubt any admin will bother...


Yeah I fear the same. The approach so far does not hint that this will be up for debate, I fear it is more likely with a "sit down and shut up" kind of reply. The way this has been communicated (or rather, how it was not communicated..) is what is most disappointing.

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Re: Editing a message

Postby Mug UK » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:20 pm

IMHO the amount of posts I've made over the years, I've rarely needed to go back and edit the original. I'd rather post an additional chunk of text highlighting the error and then moving on. I don't see a problem with this change.

Those that are interested in my waffle get an update and know to go to the end of the thread to see what's been said.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby dhedberg » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:28 pm

Mug UK wrote:IMHO the amount of posts I've made over the years, I've rarely needed to go back and edit the original. I'd rather post an additional chunk of text highlighting the error and then moving on. I don't see a problem with this change.

Those that are interested in my waffle get an update and know to go to the end of the thread to see what's been said.

And that's OK, but please realize that others have found this feature extremely useful, and it's been used in a good and beneficial way for years and years. Used to make life easier here at AF. So, even if you as a moderator/administrator doesn't use it, it doesn't mean that it isn't used and appreciated by others. I think there are enough of us here (many of which are long time users and big contributors to AF) that want this feature back, that it would be pretty rude to just ignore our opinions.
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Re: Editing a message

Postby Greenious » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:11 am

joska wrote:
mfro wrote:If you had modified the original post, your change most likely will go unnoticed.


Correct, and personally I find it very annoying when people do this. Even worse - the last post only says "first post updated" and when you look at the first post you have no idea what has been updated.

Yes, I can see many reasons for allowing post editing. Correcting typos, removing personal information and so. I'm running a phpBB forum myself, and so far I've allowed unlimited post editing. This requires some discipline from the users (when editing your post, also write a note saying *what* you changed, and also be very careful about what you change) but so far it has worked well. But this feature has to be used with care - this is a *discussion forum*, it's not a wiki. If the users does not get this then I don't see the problem in disabling this feature.

One small example of annoying post editing is this thread. It's getting confusing already in the second post, because the first post has been heavily edited.


You also need to consider the size of AF, in a forum with less volume and shorter history, abuse of this functionality is much easier to detect and deal with.

I've always been very adamant about adding an "edit" to my posts I edit if I add/change the content, even if I add something just 10 minutes later, it's only the occasional typo, formatting, estethics etc that I don't always mention that the post has been edited. But many do not. Sometimes people quote me before I have time to finish the edit, and without my edit note, the conversation would look quite odd at times, and for that reason I typically never edit a post (to add/change content) that someone already answered to, in a forum I think that is dishonest to the discussion... I may however fix a typo or formatting or something if it's messed up.

And yes, I see strange conversations sometimes, when ppl simply omit that they have edited their posts and people have answered their original post. Like someone else said, this is a forum, not a wiki.

No, this was a much overdue and needed change. The question should be how long should a post be open to be edited? Personally, I'd say until someone has replied...

*Edit* (now see what I did there) Now I do understand the argument of certain pinned threads, or first post in a thread, would benefit from being editeable. But how often is there really a need for that? Often enough to motivate everyone perpetual editing rights? Or seldom enough that it's a minor job mods can do for you when needed?
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Re: Editing a message

Postby jury » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:20 am

F.u.c.k you. So now its to prevent ... no, its not worth it. Can you please remove my account from this forum as I have requested yesterday. Or do I have to make some mess on the forum so you will be forced to remove my account?


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