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Good bye

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:46 pm
by Rajah Lone
I notice that old versions of my softwares are still listed here without my agreement :

https://demozoo.org/sceners/33044/
also http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=59742 (and maybe some more elsewhere)

This is not right. These softwares do not belong to the demoscene realm. I never participate to a demo competition of any kind in a demo party. If these archives may have been distributed on a diskmag without my consent, I consent now, but I don't agree to let these old versions listed like that on these websites. Moreover, this list is incomplete and inaccurate: I have released newer versions and much more over things. All out the demoscene domain.

I am tired to ask the admins/modos to remove these entries from the pouet and demozoo databases. By the way, my account at demozoo is still disabled to prevent to delete the datas myself (which is my right). My request of removals to the moderators is never granted.

Since shouting my anger and asking again and again to these stubborn people is useless, the only reasonable path of protest is silence. I will continue to code, work on my projects, upgrade and fix, but for my own self only. From now, I will not release anything, no new program, no upgrade, not even a fix.

Since I do not have to interact to any Atari people for code/dev/advise. I also won't answer to email or message from this realm.

Thus, farewell. Silence is my herald.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:22 pm
by Playmobil
Hooooo non Pierre !!! Fait pas ça ! Je comprend très bien, mais put#@in ! Tu es le meilleur codeur GFA même loin devant Mr Claude Attard !!!

Hoooo no Pierre !!! Don't do that ' I understand, but you are the best GFA coder, better than Claude Attard nowaday !

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:16 am
by TheNameOfTheGame
Thank you so much for your contributions to the Atari platform. Farewell and I am sorry to see you go. This is sad news.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:13 am
by calimero
This is outrage! How it is possible that admins of pouet and demooz wont remove your stuff from database?!?

Authors of demoozo was pissoff by admins of pouet so they create their own site to be “better” then pouet and at the end they are same!


Btw
I also thinking a lot about this online information, digital realm, since I also made a database of Atari software.
Everybody can edit and add data but only I can remove it (and I will do on request certanly) but my main concern is what will happen if I die or loss memory in e.g. car accident :) and I did pay for hosting in advance for ten years... so we should have some backup plan.



I see that Lotek/tSCc upload your apps on pouet and demoozo, so lotek, can you remove it?

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:28 am
by OL
Hello Pierre

I understand, hope to see you one day during an Atari show or something like this, next year I should have more time. Hope you will be back in some month as I do in the past.

Best Regards

Olivier

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:07 am
by mlynn1974
I don't know how relevant this is but under GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation), which we should all be aware of, there is the right to be forgotten. World Of Spectrum (WOS) has a nice way to deal with this: it lists the details of the game or demo or whatever and then in red it says in a rather stern tone "Distribution Denied". This is for copyright reasons e.g. Code Masters and Ultimate games spring to mind. I think Pouet and Demozoo should have that.

Nobody wants software to be lost forever but they should respect people's wishes.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:46 am
by mikro
The demozoo people surely aren't going to be touched by this move and we, users, will miss your nice apps.

As I said to you in other thread, as an individual you have very few rights on the Internet, and taking down your freeware apps certainly isn't one of them.

When somebody googles your name now he sees your website as the first result (demozoo is 3rd in my search engine), if you take your whole website down, people will see only the obsolete apps from demozoo, the ones you are so much complaining about.

Take some time to chill out and come back when ready, you are welcome here.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:20 pm
by Greenious
In all honesty, while I do understand your grief, and sympathise...

But if I were to leave the scene everytime some idiot offended me, I don't get along with someone, someone wasn't agreeing with me, anyone didn't thank me or credit me for my work, I'd leave every day of the week. And if you think you are "punishing" demozoo and pouet by leaving this forum, you are mistaken, all you are doing is turning your back on your friends. :(

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:35 pm
by Estrayk
Is it possible that admins are on holidays?

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:11 pm
by vido
Rajah, I understand your anger, but you just punished the users of you applications and not the people responsible for this situation!
Please reconsider this. But you have all right to do whatever you want and BIG thank you for your software contributions so far!!!

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:06 pm
by Dbug
I for one totally agree with Rajah on that one.

"As I said to you in other thread, as an individual you have very few rights on the Internet, and taking down your freeware apps certainly isn't one of them."
Maybe not, but a minimum of consideration and understanding would not hurt, would it?

Having people put your software on a site, without your authorization, and balking at removing it is just bad manners and lacking of consideration in regard of the work done (for free) by the authors.

It's a bit like when I find my Oric software in "Retro Collections" archives, stripped from all the nfo files and other information that could be useful for people to find where they came from. That's probably not illegal, I can't do anything against it, that's still a dick move.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:11 pm
by lp
Being a huge GFA fan, I enjoy seeing you push the boundaries of the language. You will be missed. :(

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:51 pm
by Cyprian
Rajah, sad news but full understandable.
I keep my finger crossed for resolving positively that issue with both platforms.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:52 pm
by mikro
Dbug wrote:"As I said to you in other thread, as an individual you have very few rights on the Internet, and taking down your freeware apps certainly isn't one of them."
Maybe not, but a minimum of consideration and understanding would not hurt, would it?

Just to be clear: I'm not defending manners of people from Demozoo / pouet. Sure, it would be polite to fulfil the author's wishes and/or find some nice compromise (i.e. let him update all software links to latest versions).

But if they refuse, all I can imagine is posting a message like "guys, watch out, those individuals are very hard to reason with, avoid them!" and not anger on the whole atari community, based on some virtual "rights".

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:56 pm
by Dbug
But if they refuse, all I can imagine is posting a message like "guys, watch out, those individuals are very hard to reason with, avoid them!" and not anger on the whole atari community, based on some virtual "rights".

It's the french way: When the government does not listen, you just block the country until the government decide to discuss (or send the riot police in full military gear)

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:38 pm
by jfl
mikro wrote:When somebody googles your name now he sees your website as the first result (demozoo is 3rd in my search engine), if you take your whole website down, people will see only the obsolete apps from demozoo, the ones you are so much complaining about.

This is an excellent point. I hope Rajah you will get it. For what it's worth, I will miss you if you really leave the scene. Cheers

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:47 pm
by joska
mikro wrote:based on some virtual "rights".


Rights is one thing, showing some respect is a completely different matter and I fully understand Rajah's anger towards demozoo and pouet in this case. Without coders - no pouet or demozoo. Now there's one coder less in our small community.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:45 pm
by ThorstenOtto
I also understand your anger, but i think you are "punishing" the wrong people. People who are reading here surely know where to get up-to-date versions of your programs. And i'm entirely sure that everyone using network tools (as one example, i know that there are other programs you have done), is absolutely happy about your continuing work.

I'm also not really sure whether you really have the right to demand from those people to delete the entry. Once you have released it as freeware, you essentially gave them the right to publish it on their site, whether demo or not. And of course its up to them to check for updates or not. You can kindly ask them or give them a hint, but you can't "force" them to update or delete the entry. Nevertheless, their (non-)reaction is of course showing totally disrespect.

Still hoping that you can calm down a bit, and get back one day.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:05 am
by wongck
Your software are excellent !! and glad that you are still developing on the Atari platform.
But would be sad if you chose not to share it with the Atari community here.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:03 am
by havoc
I'd like to reply to some of your remarks which appear to be incorrect or misleading. I'm not going to address Rajah directly because Lotek has already addressed his concerns sufficiently in the past, I thought the arguments that Lotek raised in his reply to Rajah were consistent and solid, and the arguments that Rajah offers have not changed at all since that discussion started.

Authors of demoozo was pissoff by admins of pouet so they create their own site to be “better” then pouet and at the end they are same!

Sorry but that's pure nonsense. We (Pouet) kindly donated our entire database to Demozoo as a starting point for their efforts. Furthermore, a whole bunch of staff are active on both sites, we link to eachother's sites extensively, etc etc. Get your facts straight plz :)

World Of Spectrum (WOS) has a nice way to deal with this: it lists the details of the game or demo or whatever and then in red it says in a rather stern tone "Distribution Denied". This is for copyright reasons e.g. Code Masters and Ultimate games spring to mind. I think Pouet and Demozoo should have that.

How would you go about denying us to distribute software when we do not actually distribute any software whatsoever?

Having people put your software on a site, without your authorization, and balking at removing it is just bad manners and lacking of consideration in regard of the work done (for free) by the authors.

Years of hammering the same old, tired, largely invalid and/or irrelevant arguments in spite of volunteer archivists countering them repeatedly in the past is also a form of bad manners and lacking of consideration in regard of the work done (for free) by the maintainers of websites. I don't blame Lotek for giving up on replying to Rajah's never changing complaints because Rajah does not seem to want to consider any argument but his own.

It's a bit like when I find my Oric software in "Retro Collections" archives, stripped from all the nfo files and other information that could be useful for people to find where they came from. That's probably not illegal, I can't do anything against it, that's still a dick move.
\
That comparison is rather farfetched I'd say. If any info, files, screenshots, download links, or whatever is wrong, incomplete or maimed on Pouet, users are free to suggest updates. Rajah knows this, has used Pouet's automated edit request system, and his requests were granted. It's a dick move that people suggest anything else but that verifiable truth to be the case.

Just to be clear: I'm not defending manners of people from Demozoo / pouet. Sure, it would be polite to fulfil the author's wishes and/or find some nice compromise (i.e. let him update all software links to latest versions).

See above, this is not even a compromise but a standard feature that is offered to any user of Pouet (who hasn't tried to abuse the system and got caught doing it). And as a matter of fact, Rajah has used this feature. So I guess he's just not the compromise kinda guy.

Rights is one thing, showing some respect is a completely different matter and I fully understand Rajah's anger towards demozoo and pouet in this case.

Do you also know the full history of Rajah's complaints, Lotek's solid and (imho) correct replies to Rajah's complaints, and Rajah's repeated habit of ignoring Lotek's replies and pointlessly reiterating his already replied to/rebutted complaints? The latter not being a very respectful manner of conduct either, IMHO.

Now there's one coder less in our small community.

And that's all to blame on the horrific folks who run Pouet and Demozoo in their spare time, I guess? Or is this Rajah's own decision and are you falling for a rather obvious attempt at emotionally extorting your small community into getting Rajah what he wants but cannot get by hammering down the same arguments over and over again until well respected members of our community give up replying?

I'm also not really sure whether you really have the right to demand from those people to delete the entry. Once you have released it as freeware, you essentially gave them the right to publish it on their site, whether demo or not.

Actually we don't publish any software on Pouet, we're just publishing a download link (in this case it points to Rajah's site), relevant metadata and user's comments.

And of course its up to them to check for updates or not. You can kindly ask them or give them a hint, but you can't "force" them to update or delete the entry.

People can't force us to delete links to freeware software indeed. We do accept user's edit requests, usually dozens to hundreds of them every single day, including some of Rajah's. He's welcome to request further edits of his prods if he releases updated versions or other data changes.

Nevertheless, their (non-)reaction is of course showing totally disrespect.

I'd say it's rather disrespectful of Rajah to claim only that Lotek "ran away" when in fact Lotek gave him respectful and solid replies, which in my personal opinion were quite clearly more valid than Rajah's. Yes, Lotek stopped replying at some point, but how many times would you reiterate yourself before you stop replying to someone who keeps repeating the same arguments over and over and over again?

Re: Good bye

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:32 am
by TheNameOfTheGame
ehh, havoc I don't know you but as you say we are a "small community"..Rajah is a generous and productive developer of which our "small community" has very few remaining...so maybe it would be best to acquiesce with regards to his request and not piss him off? The fact is sometimes creative individuals are not very comfortable with "compromise". Don't get me wrong, the websites and the work of the people involved here are very important and *much* appreciated, but where there appears some pushback from an active developer is it not best to back off a bit and make peace?

From my outside perspective, this whole matter seems very petty. What is the harm to simply respect his wishes for his software, even if that bothers you and goes against your mission statement. The alternative would make be imagine that you might not really have the best interest of our "small community" at heart. This is so much drama that is unnecessary.

Please do not take this opinion as a personal attack against you, but this whole matter seems so simple to avoid. Unfortunately, I have begun to suspect egos are involved here which is never a good thing. :(

Re: Good bye

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:06 am
by havoc
So what you're suggesting is that despite the fact that after reviewing all available information and arguments from both sides years ago, and coming to the conclusion that Lotek's argument, albeit perhaps not perfect, is clearly the more valid of the two, then granting Rajah's edit requests so the prod is represented as he sees fit before he changed his mind once again to wanting to delete the entries completely, my role as site administrator should be to turn around years after those facts, ignore my colleague Lotek's arguments completely and one-up that via stabbing him in the back by deleting the entry in our database, just because Rajah says that's what he'd enjoy the most? I'm sorry, that's just not how I roll.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:33 am
by AdamK
I think, at this point, the best thing to do is to publish all exchanges on the subject between the parties.

Re: Good bye

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:24 am
by dhedberg
I'm totally blown away by all this nonsense havoc. It's not even demoscene stuff. Demozoo and Pouet seem to rather want to stand above the community than be a part of it. It's sure changed my view of the sites knowing how they are managed. Sad!

Re: Good bye

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:59 am
by Dbug
People can't force us to delete links to freeware software indeed.


I think that's the core of the issue: This is not a demoscene product, if the author does not want it there, just remove any reference to it.
I don't even see why there should be a discussion about that.

What is suggested is that Rajah updates the entry to point on recent versions, but that's not what he wants, what he wants is to get the entries gone from the demoscene databases, which seems totally logical, fair and reasonable.

Based on what you wrote, if I upload any random freeware software on pouet and demozoo that I found anywhere, then it will stay there because despite not being related at all with anything scene related, it was added so it should not be removed?