Good bye

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Re: Good bye

Postby mikro » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:28 am

Dbug wrote:what he wants is to get the entries gone from the demoscene databases, which seems totally logical, fair and reasonable.

Does it really?

I mean, who are we to dictate someone else what he can or can't put on his website? Sure, if it's a warez, pornography, whatever illegal, we have laws for that. But the rest? If I want to make a website called "10 Atari apps which I hate the most and therefore here are screenshots to show you how dumb they are", am I obliged to put it down as soon as the author says he is upset about it? IMHO, I am not and the author has absolutely no say in my spare time activities.

I really liked the analogy raised on pouet - demozoo / pouet are like movie sites. You put a trailer, screenshots, comments, rating there and nobody has any right to demand to put it down (not the studio, not the director, not the actors) because people are interacting about the movie and it's their full right.

Having said all of that, I personally think that if removing that few applications from pouet / demozoo is all what Rajah needs to releasing his Atari stuff again, just do that. As you can see, I'm more or less with havoc / lotek but as someone said earlier, don't let our egos to lose one of the most productive Atari developers.

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Re: Good bye

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:35 am

Dbug wrote:I think that's the core of the issue: This is not a demoscene product, if the author does not want it there, just remove any reference to it.


What surprizes me is the fact that someone wants this type of productivity software to show up on a demo site. People searching specifically for demo stuff usually expect a "download, run, be amazed" experience. The software we are talking about here instead requires complex stuff like network connectivity from the ST. So most users downloading it from a demoscene site would likely be disappointed. This seems to be neither a benefit for the download site nor for the downloaded software. Instead this seems like a lose-lose situation.
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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:00 am

AdamK: Lotek can do that if he so wishes, it's not my call really. People could also look up what part of those replies already part of public record, it's not so hard to find.

Daniel, Dbug: So tell me please, what exactly is a "demoscene production" or "demoscene stuff" or as Rajah liked to put it "the demoscene realm"? The whole point is, I'm more inclined to agree with Lotek's arguments why the prod should stay in our database than your or Rajah's single statements that it should be removed. In a civil discussion statements do not become truth by being repeated often but by being backed up by arguments. The same goes for the allegations you're implicitly making by the way.

Mikro: You're bang on I'd say, couldn't have said it better myself. The trouble now is, I could indeed delete the one prod by Rajah that's on Pouet. But the prod would still be in Lotek's archive and on Demozoo, and thus is not unlikely to be re-added to Pouet at some point. So effectively my delete action would achieve nothing to satisfy Rajah's demands. So I don't see the point in doing that and will follow Lotek's decisions instead.

MasterOfGizmo: A tarot card reader is productivity software...?

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Re: Good bye

Postby Symoon » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:07 am

havoc wrote:
Having people put your software on a site, without your authorization, and balking at removing it is just bad manners and lacking of consideration in regard of the work done (for free) by the authors.

Years of hammering the same old, tired, largely invalid and/or irrelevant arguments in spite of volunteer archivists countering them repeatedly in the past is also a form of bad manners and lacking of consideration in regard of the work done (for free) by the maintainers of websites.

Nobody says doing a website is not a lot of work.
Producing software is also a lot of work.
You ask for respect, then show some: if someone doesn't want you to have his software on your website, whatever the reason, just remove it. What's the problem with that? :shrug:

havoc wrote:
It's a bit like when I find my Oric software in "Retro Collections" archives, stripped from all the nfo files and other information that could be useful for people to find where they came from. That's probably not illegal, I can't do anything against it, that's still a dick move.
\
That comparison is rather farfetched I'd say. If any info, files, screenshots, download links, or whatever is wrong, incomplete or maimed on Pouet, users are free to suggest updates. Rajah knows this, has used Pouet's automated edit request system, and his requests were granted. It's a dick move that people suggest anything else but that verifiable truth to be the case.

Be realistic: authors can't spend their lives tracking websites that dumped their websites without asking, and "suggest updates". Worse, authors are asked why "this or that doesn't work" when a newer version actually works on the source website. They have their time wasted having to figure out that the user has downloaded a version on a website that doesn't care about updates, and they should waste even more time to go there and "suggest updates"?

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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:24 am

Symoon: None of Rajah's software is on our site, we merely link to the file Rajah published on his own site, as per his request that we granted. It's upto him to decide if he wants to manually update download links, or (as I would recommend) create a "latest version" download, or whatever other solution he likes.

And again, I could delete the single Rajah prod that's Pouet, but I have no authority over Lotek's archive or Demozoo, so effectively that step would do nothing to satisfy Rajah's wishes. So what's the point in doing that?

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Re: Good bye

Postby wongck » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:28 am

really liked the analogy raised on pouet - demozoo / pouet are like movie sites. You put a trailer, screenshots, comments, rating there and nobody has any right to demand to put it down (not the studio, not the director, not the actors) because people are interacting about the movie and it's their full right.


This analogy is so wrong that it becomes funny because pouet - demozoo / pouet are like movie sites except for itis for special genre.
( at least I think my crap (non-demo) are that there or are they??... IDK didn't check)

Let's say it is for pron movie review, and the movie maker did a war-story... people getting killed, explosions etc... just one scene a naked girl run down the road to escape the horror of her village being bombed.
So this movie gets into the pron review site.... may be because the poster had fetish for naked girls running away from explosion... IDK.

havoc wrote: A tarot card reader is productivity software...?


So did this just happen to that Tarot card program?
Sounds to me it just did.
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Re: Good bye

Postby Dbug » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:29 am

So tell me please, what exactly is a "demoscene production" or "demoscene stuff" or as Rajah liked to put it "the demoscene realm"?

It's obviously very contextual, I would not carve any rules in some holy tablets to define what is or is not demoscene related.

I'm an active scener, I've done demos, I've participated to demoparties, even disk mags, interviews and books stuff.
Most of my demos are on pouet and demozoo, as well as some things that were not technically of the domain of the demoscene, like the small games I made for the minigame compos, or my Atari Falcon painting program Rembrandt, but that's fine because I also did some games that entered some actual demo party compos (like my 3K FreeCell released at @Party), and Rembrandt was supposed to be used to do some demo art, ... and ultimately I'm a scener so that's fine.

The only link between Rajah and the demoscene, is that because he does stuff on the Atari he is contact with Atari users, and he's been present at the VIP and Alchemy parties, but he never did release anything there, neither did he want to. He's been there purely as ways to meet people, or help with organizing. That does not make him a scener, and as somebody pointed out, most of his productions are utilitarian (mail and ftp clients, ...) or GEM port of classic games. GEM is definitely the antithesis of all demomakers stand for :p

There are also things that are clearly "demos" and also clearly "not demoscene related", like the various demonstration tapes for 8 bit computers, they were made to show what could be done on the machine, so they are demo in their spirit, which makes it fine I guess to have them on pouet or demozoo.

That's my opinion.

Now regarding the "rights" and "legality", obviously yes you are all totally in your legal right to put whatever you find on your sites.
We are adults (most of us), and we should consider that ultimately there would be no software to put on sites if no software was produced, and pissing off people is not a long term winning strategy

None of Rajah's software is on our site, we merely link to the file Rajah published on his own site (...)And again, I could delete the single Rajah prod that's Pouet, but I have no authority over Lotek's archive or Demozoo, so effectively that step would do nothing to satisfy Rajah's wishes. So what's the point in doing that?

Let's all be reasonable: If you remove the prod from your site, that's a good start.
Then from there, the others can do it.
One step at a time.

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Re: Good bye

Postby wongck » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:34 am

havoc wrote:Symoon: None of Rajah's software is on our site, we merely link to the file Rajah published on his own site, as per his request that we granted. It's upto him to decide if he wants to manually update download links, or (as I would recommend) create a "latest version" download, or whatever other solution he likes.

This is the least difficult to tackle. Rajah could just make the destination program available to be downloaded and when the program runs just flash out in big bold letters... "Sorry but my crap are not demo" and do a for.-while-loop that hang the Atari.
havoc wrote:And again, I could delete the single Rajah prod that's Pouet, but I have no authority over Lotek's archive or Demozoo, so effectively that step would do nothing to satisfy Rajah's wishes. So what's the point in doing that?

Yeap this part is difficult.
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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:03 am

wongck: Affirmative, the only single one of Rajah's apps that we carry as far as I'm aware is the tarot card reader. And Rajah could indeed remove or otherwise maim the downloads on his site, but Lotek's archive would still contain an older unmaimed version and that's rather likely to be suggested as a replacement should the existing link go sour somehow.

Dbug: I didn't know that Rajah helped organize demoparties but safe to say that's not a very strong argument when claiming no scene connections. Not that it's relevant because our decision on keeping or deleting the prod does not concern the person behind the prod but just the prod itself- if it arguably looks and feels like a demoscene(-related) production, that's what we'll consider it to be. And in the case of the tarot card reader, Lotek convincingly argued why it should be on the site, whereas Rajah just kept hammering that it's his right to tell us what to do which obviously isn't a very effective strategy. Any talk about Rajah's other applications is irrelevant because we don't carry those productions to begin with. (Demozoo perhaps does, but I'm not involved with that site so I can't comment for them.)

If you remove the prod from your site, that's a good start.

A good start of what, a fake solution that doesn't satisfy any of the claimant's wishes? Or a good start of fornicating over Lotek, which seems to be what some folks want given the ease with which they disregard his arguments and position? I'm not game for either of those, sorry.

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Re: Good bye

Postby Dbug » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:05 am

And in the case of the tarot card reader, Lotek convincingly argued why it should be on the site

What were the actual arguments from Lotek? (They may have been posted earlier, in which case I missed them).

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Re: Good bye

Postby mikro » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:07 am

Dbug wrote:Let's all be reasonable: If you remove the prod from your site, that's a good start.
Then from there, the others can do it.
One step at a time.

Exactly. As a part of that effort, you can give him back his account and forget about this whole petty incident. If someone adds his production in the future, he is free to watch such changes and remove them, should he wish to spend his time guarding his presence in the demoscene realm.

Because really, the most important thing in our small community is not to piss of each other and measure who has better arguments but think about ways how all of us can cooperate and motivate each other to do something creative.

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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:23 am

Dbug: Sorry, I only speak for myself, maybe Lotek is willing to explain his arguments once again when asked nicely, or maybe not, that's upto him really.

mikro: Give him back what account? Rajah's Pouet account is not limited in any way as far as I'm aware, I read that he claimed that his Demozoo account was restricted but because I'm not involved with that site I can't check if that's true and/or change it.

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Re: Good bye

Postby Dbug » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:26 am

Havok: So basically you took a decision to do or not to do something based on somebody's arguments that you think are valid but that you are not willing to share.

That's going to make the discussion difficult :)

Well, guess that's where I take my hat and go back doing more interesting things that interacting with the demoscene equivalent of French administrative decisions.

Have a good weekend everybody.

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Re: Good bye

Postby joska » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:31 am

It is very simple. If Rajah does not want to be listed on demozoo and pouet - don't list Rajah on demozoo or pouet. If he's already listed, just remove it. It's not about "rights" or anything, it's normal politeness.

I'm listed on demozoo myself. By someone else, who has not bothered to update the information he entered. So "my" profile on demozoo now has outdated information. Why enter information and then don't bother to keep it updated? It makes the site pretty useless IMO, not to mention confusing for users.
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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:05 pm

Dbug: It's not so much that I'm not willing to share but rather that I'm aware that when I would do that the next predictable step is that people will start calling me out on those arguments and I wouldn't have any real answers because they're not my own arguments and Lotek chooses not to elaborate on them any longer. So I won't go down that path but rather keep the respect for Lotek intact and let him speak for himself, if he so wishes. (None of this would prevent you or anyone else from looking up the publically available replies from Lotek, though, or replying to his words on this forum, I'm just not interested in making myself part of that discussion.) Have a good weekend yourself too, with or without hat :)

joska: Pouet doesn't list any individuals, the only personal information that we show is whatever personal data people entered themselves on their user accounts. So Rajah is totally welcome to remove his real name, his association with his prod, call himself Donald Trump, or ASDFASDF, or whatever he likes, we really don't care. (Demozoo is different, again, I'm not involved with that site so can't speak for them.)

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Re: Good bye

Postby Symoon » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:32 pm

Dbug wrote:Havok: So basically you took a decision to do or not to do something based on somebody's arguments that you think are valid but that you are not willing to share.

That's going to make the discussion difficult :)


Indeed, waste of time trying to talk to people vaguely (not) explaining why they think they're right not respecting an author's request about his own software, rather than taking a few minutes to satisfy it.

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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:38 pm

Yeah, it's a waste of time to ask me about Lotek's arguments indeed. I have no idea why you guys keep doing that despite the fact that Lotek's active on this forum himself.

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Re: Good bye

Postby christos » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:49 pm

The moment something is released it becomes public information. So description, screenshots and other information should be allowed to be posted and categorised by others. An argument can be made about distribution though. If the author doesn't want the software distributed that should be their right.

So basically the best thing would be to keep the information and remove the download links.

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Re: Good bye

Postby GokMasE » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:07 pm

While I don't understand Rajah's strong feelings regarding having outdated information on his apps listed on certain websites, I find it even harder to understand why those in charge of these websites find it so important to cling on to outdated data out of principle.

There appears to be some kind of Monty Python mode enabled, where the argument keeps going regardless.

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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:17 pm

The moment something is released it becomes public information. So description, screenshots and other information should be allowed to be posted and categorised by others.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
An argument can be made about distribution though. If the author doesn't want the software distributed that should be their right.

Absolutely true, however I'd like to add that licenses do a pretty good job at covering such issues. Obviously with a "freeware" or similar license the author consciously relinquishes control over such issues. But in practice we have several "latest freeware versions" of prods in our database, and anyone is welcome to inform fellow users about existing versions with other licenses that prevent such prods from being accepted at Pouet via the comment section of the relevant prod, including the author, who's also welcome to advertise such a new version via the NFO of his prod.
So basically the best thing would be to keep the information and remove the download links.

That's an iffy one because removing download links conflicts with the user driven model of Pouet, and the prod is hosted not just on the author's server. So users can re-add the link and then the whole circus starts all over again. Or even if we'd figure out some way to automate prevention of re-adds in such cases, users could just go out and Google the title of the prod and find a wrong/outdated version elsewhere. That all seems rather pointless to me so perhaps the more effective approach would be to contact archive hosts instead of the sites linking to those archives.

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Re: Good bye

Postby havoc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:22 pm

I find it even harder to understand why those in charge of these websites find it so important to cling on to outdated data out of principle.

Uhh, but what we do is like the diametric opposite of clinging on to outdated data? Any user is welcome to suggest updates to the data on our site. Rajah in fact has made such suggestions and we happily accepted those.

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Re: Good bye

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:10 pm

One of the programs in question seems to be a remake of a strip poker game which in turn requires one to own the original game since it includes copyrighted data.

I don't understand that. Are the ganes in question already including unlicensed data in the first place? Then it would indeed be a little bit odd to complain about further distribution.

Or i am totally misunderstanding this?
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Re: Good bye

Postby ranix » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:33 pm

If you release something it's released and you can't un-release it. These guys can put whatever they want in their databases. Why don't they just remove it anyway if the author wants them to? Because they don't want to remove it. It's their database and they can keep whatever they want in it. Get over yourself. Who is going to cry tears over someone leaving a scene that they want their releases removed from anyway using the excuse that they are not part of the scene? It's like you just want to make drama over nothing

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Re: Good bye

Postby penguin » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:02 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:One of the programs in question seems to be a remake of a strip poker game which in turn requires one to own the original game since it includes copyrighted data.

I don't understand that. Are the ganes in question already including unlicensed data in the first place? Then it would indeed be a little bit odd to complain about further distribution.


The strip poker game? Yes, it includes the data. But the other part (the game logic) was recoded by Rajah.

ranix wrote:If you release something it's released and you can't un-release it. These guys can put whatever they want in their databases. Why don't they just remove it anyway if the author wants them to? Because they don't want to remove it. It's their database and they can keep whatever they want in it. Get over yourself. Who is going to cry tears over someone leaving a scene that they want their releases removed from anyway using the excuse that they are not part of the scene? It's like you just want to make drama over nothing


He's one of the most active Atari ST developers. There are very few developers left - especially ones that are not part of the "scene". He's also kind enough to release the source for each of his programs. That's a big help for anyone who wants to code some advanced GFA GEM stuff.
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Re: Good bye

Postby thomas3 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:10 pm

Lol @ human behaviour


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