EmuTOS 0.9.9

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:38 am

Something for you lot here to ponder on....

When a person tells you what is wrong with your software (or looks, clothing, behavior, work ... insert whatever you want here ), it is because that person cares about your software (or whatever you inserted above).
Because if that person don't care, he does not even need to waste time telling you.


So EMUTOS team... We all care enough to have a great product that will work with most software and making it so will get more users using it.

Stating that it is not needed because only one developer using it only is not a good response at all. You have to proof ALL old and new Atari software except software from that one developers is not using it to say that. I think the EMUTOS team has not tested ALL other software and so in no position to claim it is not needed.

OTOH, to prove that it is needed, just need ONE single program that uses it.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:03 am

christos wrote:We are speaking about one piece of software copied multiple times. Also nothing is removed from EmuTOS. We are talking about adding something. It is a situation similar when TOS 1.04 was released. It was better but some programs wouldn't run because they exploited bugs and undocumented "features" of earlier versions. By your logic, those bugs should have been perpetuated to infinity. When a new Windows version is released the same exact thing happens. It's OS evolution.

Yes, correct because you do not see the difference here on the Atari.
OS evolution can happen on the Windows OS ( or iOS or Android or what new OS you're using), because software developers of that platform will come out with updates so that their software works on the new versions.
Do do you also make OS evolution on TOS and then wait for software developers to come out with patches for their Atari software ?
Wake up and smell the coffee.

So by removing this "undocumented feature" from ENUTOS makes no sense. And you are correct by saying it's adding back.

christos wrote:And again, what everyone is saying is that if it's shown that this exploit was commonly used or that this was the intended behaviour of TOS and not a side effect of bad code, it will be included in the next version. And I have an example for this. Qextract uses shel_read() to get path information and that was not correctly implemented in EmuTOS. It was immediately fixed because that was what it was supposed to do.

This scenario is different, clearly EMUTOS was in error when it does not do shel_read() correctly as documented and so it is required to fix immediately. The scenario here is that it is an undocumented feature. To include or not.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:09 am

BlankVector wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Do I need to repeat already said here - that there is return value of Ikbdsys, and it makes pretty much sense ?

- EmuTOS ikbdsys does not return anything meaningful, because it considers this is not necessary to be compatible with TOS.
- AtariZoll's game adaptations expect that ikbdsys returns a negative byte in d0, in case of key release.

So we are stuck.

Here is a solution. This is a TSR named FIXPP.PRG. It reimplements ikbdsys to fit AtariZoll's expectations :angel:
Run it before the game (from desktop or AUTO), then run the game.

PS: This is very alpha stuff, just a proof of concept.


The most sane posting in the entire thread. :angel: :D

With that soluton... may be we can move to another topic. :wink:
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby vido » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:11 am

wongck wrote:Why is EMUTOS called EMUTOS ???

If I am right it is called EmuTOS because its main purpose was to be replacement for the original TOS-es in EMUlators and clones because of the Copyrights. Its purpose also was not to be backward compatible but just to provide enough compatibility to be able to start Multitos/MiNT.

As I understand and also support myself, is not backward compatibility but to ensure future to Atari clones and emulators.

This is how I understand it.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby mfro » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:13 am

vido wrote:
wongck wrote:Why is EMUTOS called EMUTOS ???

If I am right it is called EmuTOS because its main purpose was to be replacement for the original TOS-es in EMUlators and clones because of the Copyrights. Its purpose also was not to be backward compatible but just to provide enough compatibility to be able to start Multitos/MiNT.

As I understand and also support myself, is not backward compatibility but to ensure future to Atari clones and emulators.

This is how I understand it.


This is indeed what most people believe. Nevertheless, not true.

In reality, the name EmuTOS was choosen only for those that *really* know.

It is a well known fact to the inner circle (aka those that have a debugger and can trace) that in Atari TOS 1.0 (GEMDOS 0.13, the only TOS version that really counts and is most compatible), the Sversion() system call has special behaviour. Although originally (improperly) documented as having no parameters at all (short Sversion(void)), it will return a BCD number in the memory address A5 points to if you call it with a pointer to the (fake) original operating system name instead of a void value.

Sversion("Emu"), for example, will return "187" in (A5) (only on waxing moon, the value will be in (A6) otherwise). Now, the rule (that only the inaugurated know) is to add the first two digits (character by character in ASCII) to the name and substract the last one in order to get the real first three characters of the OS name.

Unfortunately, Atari dropped this very useful function in later TOS versions (probably because ist wasn't well documented), causing incompatible behaviour. EmuTOS however, supported this throughout all versions to keep compatibility to TOS 1.0 and thus allows many programs to run that would fail otherwise.

I'm sure Vincent will come up with a patch program very soon to fix the erroneous behaviour of later TOS versions as well. :angel:

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby 1st1 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:27 am

mfro wrote:
vido wrote:
wongck wrote:Why is EMUTOS called EMUTOS ???

If I am right it is called EmuTOS because its main purpose was to be replacement for the original TOS-es in EMUlators and clones because of the Copyrights. Its purpose also was not to be backward compatible but just to provide enough compatibility to be able to start Multitos/MiNT.

As I understand and also support myself, is not backward compatibility but to ensure future to Atari clones and emulators.

This is how I understand it.


This is indeed what most people believe. Nevertheless, not true.

In reality, the name EmuTOS was choosen only for those that *really* know.

It is a well known fact to the inner circle (aka those that have a debugger and can trace) that in Atari TOS 1.0 (GEMDOS 0.13, the only TOS version that really counts and is most compatible), the Sversion() system call has special behaviour. Although originally (improperly) documented as having no parameters at all (short Sversion(void)), it will return a BCD number in the memory address A5 points to if you call it with a pointer to the (fake) original operating system name instead of a void value.

Sversion("Emu"), for example, will return "187" in (A5) (only on waxing moon, the value will be in (A6) otherwise). Now, the rule (that only the inaugurated know) is to add the first two digits (character by character in ASCII) to the name and substract the last one in order to get the real first three characters of the OS name.

Unfortunately, Atari dropped this very useful function in later TOS versions (probably because ist wasn't well documented), causing incompatible behaviour. EmuTOS however, supported this throughout all versions to keep compatibility to TOS 1.0 and thus allows many programs to run that would fail otherwise.

I'm sure Vincent will come up with a patch program very soon to fix the erroneous behaviour of later TOS versions as well. :angel:


... mfro, then you must correct Wikipedia article.

en.wikipedia.org wrote:EmuTOS is a replacement for TOS (the operating system of the Atari ST and its successors), released as free software. It's mainly intended to be used with Atari emulators and clones, such as Hatari or FireBee. EmuTOS provides support for more modern hardware and avoids the use of the old, proprietary TOS as they are usually difficult to obtain.


By the way, Wikipedia lists releases only until Release 0.9.7.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby mfro » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:41 am

1st1 wrote:... mfro, then you must correct Wikipedia article.


No. This is just in the good tradition of bad documentation.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby GokMasE » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:51 am

mfro wrote:
1st1 wrote:... mfro, then you must correct Wikipedia article.


No. This is just in the good tradition of bad documentation.


Haha! I guess the sarcasm in previous post went by completely unnoticed :-D

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby Frank B » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:12 pm

GokMasE wrote:
mfro wrote:
1st1 wrote:... mfro, then you must correct Wikipedia article.


No. This is just in the good tradition of bad documentation.


Haha! I guess the sarcasm in previous post went by completely unnoticed :-D


Just add the hack to the Amiga branch of EmuTOS. :)

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:39 pm

vido wrote:
wongck wrote:Why is EMUTOS called EMUTOS ???

If I am right it is called EmuTOS because its main purpose was to be replacement for the original TOS-es in EMUlators and clones because of the Copyrights. Its purpose also was not to be backward compatible but just to provide enough compatibility to be able to start Multitos/MiNT.

As I understand and also support myself, is not backward compatibility but to ensure future to Atari clones and emulators.

This is how I understand it.


So, it is EMU comes from EMUlate... but it is a bad emulator as it cannot "reproduce the function or action of" TOS.
So i think going by names of BIRDS as what Atari did for Sparrows and Falcon would be a better explanation.

But then with BlankVector patch now, it can be said the emulation is closer.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:43 pm

mfro wrote:
1st1 wrote:... mfro, then you must correct Wikipedia article.


No. This is just in the good tradition of bad documentation.



no need to do anything because it is undocumented :wink:
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby shoggoth » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:52 pm

wongck wrote:So, it is EMU comes from EMUlate... but it is a bad emulator as it cannot "reproduce the function or action of" TOS.
So i think going by names of BIRDS as what Atari did for Sparrows and Falcon would be a better explanation.


Come on wongck.

Unless EmuTOS turns into a 1:1 binary copy of TOS, there will be cases were poor code fails on EmuTOS yet works on TOS. For legacy software, it can make sense to make adjustments to EmuTOS to cater for compatibility with some of these poor design choices, but coders who pursue such practices for contemporary code needs a good beating in their nutsack (if applicable), medieval style.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:31 pm

I was just directly lifting the meaning of Emulate from Google...
emutos.JPG


Yup... Gone are the good old days.... heck! they even spoil the word hacker, that used to mean a skilled computer guy to nowadays someone who breaks into a computer to steal stuff.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby spiny » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:54 pm

wongck wrote:Why is EMUTOS called EMUTOS ???

EMU is a bird, so is it following naming stuff using bird name? Like Sparrow or Falcon ?


it's short for EMUlator.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:02 pm

BlankVector wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Do I need to repeat already said here - that there is return value of Ikbdsys, and it makes pretty much sense ?

- EmuTOS ikbdsys does not return anything meaningful, because it considers this is not necessary to be compatible with TOS.
- AtariZoll's game adaptations expect that ikbdsys returns a negative byte in d0, in case of key release.

So we are stuck.

Here is a solution. This is a TSR named FIXPP.PRG. It reimplements ikbdsys to fit AtariZoll's expectations :angel:
Run it before the game (from desktop or AUTO), then run the game.

PS: This is very alpha stuff, just a proof of concept.


This is a reasonable solution. :cheers:

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby jfl » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:17 pm

wongck wrote:
vido wrote:
wongck wrote:Why is EMUTOS called EMUTOS ???

If I am right it is called EmuTOS because its main purpose was to be replacement for the original TOS-es in EMUlators and clones because of the Copyrights.

So, it is EMU comes from EMUlate... but it is a bad emulator as it cannot "reproduce the function or action of" TOS.

The name comes from it being designed at first to be run on emulators. EmuTOS isn't an emulator itself. Honestly, wongck, I've never seen you so antagonistic and negative. Chill, man :coffe:
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:16 am

I want to use it on my Falcon so that I do not need to load in drivers for HDD and fixes for TOS like buffer fix, arrowfix, extra windows (via WinX for example). So now saying it is not compatible is really disappointing and upsetting.

Nevertheless, It's a great replacement. and with each updates it gets better.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby joska » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:41 am

wongck wrote:So now saying it is not compatible is really disappointing and upsetting.


You have a CT60 in your Falcon, right? Then I would assume that EmuTOS does not work (yet), just like every other version of TOS. The only "TOS" that's working on the CT60 is Didier's "TOS", which is a hacked 4.04.

I have tried EmuTOS on my Afterburner though, and it is working together with the Afterburner drivers. It's also sort of working without the drivers, it even recognises the alt-RAM. However, some work has to be done to support the Afterburner completely. I've been wanting to do this for years to avoid using the AB-drivers.

wongck wrote:So by removing this "undocumented feature" from ENUTOS makes no sense. And you are correct by saying it's adding back.


Please read the following very carefully: Nothing has ever been removed! This side-effect that AtariZoll exploits has never existed in EmuTOS. It's not a question of "adding it back" - it has never existed. This has been explained several times now.

A really huge advantage of EmuTOS on real hardware is that you can build in support for stuff that did not even exist back then, or was neglected by Atari. E.g. EmuTOS contains a complete harddisk driver with support for DOS-partitioned media. It works on the Amiga. It supports MonSTer alt-RAM and RTC with no additional drivers. It works on the Firebee.

Take a look at this list. By your logic all of these exploits should be supported by EmuTOS. Which of the features above should be removed to make room for this? Oh, that would be all of them, because basically you expect EmuTOS to be a 1:1 binary clone of TOS. Or do you consider this particular - so far only found in one person's code - exploit to be special?

EmuTOS is a re-implementation of TOS, not a binary clone of it. So 100% compatibility is impossible. There will always be a lot of software that only works on particular versions of TOS, nothing can be done about that.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby simonsunnyboy » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:01 am

Maybe a generic compatibility layer could be provided as an optional AUTO patch?
Something that adds some TOS quirks only on demand to EmuTOS. But no void functions returning values please xD
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby dhedberg » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:35 am

Thank you to everyone involved in the 0.9.9.x release! I appreciate your hard work and the improved Desktop and blitter support are much appreciated improvements!
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby jfl » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:41 am

I must admit I have a hard time understanding why some people seem to want EmuTOS to be a perfect clone of some specific version of TOS when any TOS you may wish to run on any machine/emulator you may have is floating about on the Net. Beats me.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:40 am

Yes, the build in DOS HDD driver is one key point for me. :D
Currently the hacked TOS4.04 is the best TOS for my Falcon. It would be better if drivers and fixes are integrated into it.

joska wrote:Take a look at this list. By your logic all of these exploits should be supported by EmuTOS.


Since exploits are already known then it just needs someone to add them back in. :D
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby wongck » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 am

joska wrote:Please read the following very carefully: Nothing has ever been removed! This side-effect that AtariZoll exploits has never existed in EmuTOS. It's not a question of "adding it back" - it has never existed. This has been explained several times now.


Well, each one looks at it differently.

It's like baking a cake with an recipe.
The original cake has a slight crispy top due to it placed at bottom of the oven.
Every body likes it and use the cake for many purpose.
A new cake comes, that does not have the crispy top because it was placed further from the flame, at the top of the oven.
the recipe states the temperature and time but does not document the position of placment of the cake in the oven.

So was the by-product of crispy top removed or not removed as compared to the original cake?

Just a different point of view.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby joska » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:13 pm

wongck wrote:
joska wrote:Take a look at this list. By your logic all of these exploits should be supported by EmuTOS.


Since exploits are already known then it just needs someone to add them back in. :D


So tell me, how do you instruct your compiler toolchain to put a certain variable at a certain memory address? What are the side-effects of doing such a thing?

And again, you can't "add back in" something that has never existed in the first place. "Add back in" suggests that whatever you "add back in" has been removed at some point.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.9

Postby GokMasE » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:13 pm

joska wrote:And again, you can't "add back in" something that has never existed in the first place. "Add back in" suggests that whatever you "add back in" has been removed at some point.


:cheers:


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