What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:08 pm

@lp Could you please answer my earlier questions regarding your views on "authorization", from a legal perspective? After all, you claim on your site that the content is under your copyright:

Code: Select all

    <META NAME="generator" content="Lonny Pursell and ENCOM">
    <META NAME="copyright" content="Copyright 1996-2018 by Lonny Pursell and ENCOM  All rights reserved.">


... but a simple index is not copyrightable. Let me know if you want more information on copyright law, I'd be glad to help out.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:34 pm

troed wrote:During most of that time, if I've understood it correctly, the original site was offline more than online as well.


You did not understand it correctly.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:01 pm

joska wrote:
troed wrote:During most of that time, if I've understood it correctly, the original site was offline more than online as well.


You did not understand it correctly.


Strange, I'm quite sure I did. That was the whole reason for the mirror (which, btw, being a mirror always had the same credits-list, for those who still want to claim differently)

czietz wrote:Atariforge is down very often, unfortunately. Exxos has a mirror of dev-docs, albeit outdated: http://dev-docs.exxoshost.co.uk/


viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32673&p=332848&hilit=atariforge.org#p332848

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:06 pm

troed wrote:Strange, I'm quite sure I did.


I guess that depends on where you got your impressions from. But atariforge never had > 50% downtime...
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:26 pm

I documented numerous thread yesterday about outage. I also read the very first thread here when exxos mentioned in the same thread as lp wrote in that he had made a mirror. I also noted that even though exxos _had_ this personal mirror, his responses to others looking for documents was always to direct them to the atariforge-site.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=28083&p=289744&hilit=atariforge.org#p274514

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29965&p=296034&hilit=atariforge.org#p296032

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=26943&p=258038&hilit=atariforge.org#p258038

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27457&p=266071&hilit=atariforge.org#p266071

Basically there's no reason whatsoever for the whining and rude emails from lp.

I do agree it should've been extremely clear everywhere that it was a mirror*, try to be helpful and direct people to the right site, and it's of course sad if search is broken. I guess it's just easier to hate on people who try to be supportive.

/Troed

*) example: https://troed.ddns.net/www.dev-docs.org/

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:53 pm

You should add "incomplete" to the header, as you're missing quite some files there.

You see why Lonny prefers to administrate this himself?
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:06 pm

joska wrote:You should add "incomplete" to the header, as you're missing quite some files there.


Feel free to mention one out of those "quite some".

(I re-verified that all linked files from the original categories are there, which is to be expected since that's what a wget -m does ... )

The point isn't that I'm able to make a mirror. The point is that on numerous occasions sites that retro communities rely on go missing. The Atari-Forum wiki problem has been quite a blow for example. We should encourage mirrors - not go into hissy fits over them.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:57 pm

troed dev-docs.png

real dev-docs.png


See the difference? Broken page, incomplete search result. That's just one example. I leave the rest to you.

I have absolutely no problems in seeing Lonny's point here - he's the one who's done all the work on this site and I fully understand that he gets pi**ed off when someone creates an incomplete/broken copy of his site and makes it publicly available.

So the server that hosted Lonny's site went down. He moved his site to another server, problem solved. Why do you feel the need to publish copies of his work? Should Lonny walk in front of a bus tomorrow there are other people with access to the complete site. Should the new server disappear then Lonny obviously has backups. HE DOES NOT WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO F**K WITH HIS WORK. It shouldn't be hard to respect that, even if you disagree?

There is no need for mirrors these days, it's a thing of the past were bandwidth was an issue. If you're concerned about this site disappearing - go ahead, keep an offline copy for yourself. No need to publish it unless the real site actually disappears.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:59 pm

joska wrote:See the difference? Broken page, incomplete search result. That's just one example. I leave the rest to you.


Ah, so you weren't commenting on there being any missing files at all (they're all there), but that the server side search functionality isn't exactly the same. That's correct, apparently Lonny threw the biggest hissy fit over Exxos asking if he could use the existing one instead of writing his own. I spent five minutes on mine so far, but I intend for it to also be able to search within the file contents. Maybe you could complain on Lonny's site being "broken" and incomplete then?

There is no need for mirrors these days, it's a thing of the past were bandwidth was an issue. If you're concerned about this site disappearing - go ahead, keep an offline copy for yourself. No need to publish it unless the real site actually disappears.


Guess what - that's exactly what Exxos did (see the links I posted earlier). I think that fact concludes the thread nicely.

joska wrote:publish copies of his work


One of the files on the site is Doit_Archives-ELiTE_2006.zip. Now, as can be guessed from the filename this isn't really "Lonny's work". It's an Elite crack of the well known Doit archives. I'm not sure what the opinion was in 2006, but when I cracked the DoitST archive in 2000 it was not appreciated at all by its authors.

But I never tried to claim it was "my work" at least - or putting a Copyright notice on the archive like Lonny has done for his site. (My mirror has no copyright notice, and also requests to not be indexed by search engines).

Screen Shot 2018-01-22 at 18.53.49.png
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:43 pm

troed wrote:Ah, so you weren't commenting on there being any missing files at all (they're all there), but that the server side search functionality isn't exactly the same.


This is the problem with leeching sites with wget. You only get what you see. If you wget atari-forum.com, do you get a functional clone of this forum?

real dev-docs.png

troed dev-docs-not-found.png

not_found.png


So where is this file on your copy? And believe me, you've got loads of these cases.

Recently me and a friend took over the maintenance of a rather big site covering an obscure 8-bit system. Before taking on this I wget'ed the original site to have a look at what was there. And the copy did not even work. And what's more, the copy was 1.3Gb while actual site I received a few days later was 1.8Gb. That's a lot of 8-bit stuff missed by wget!

troed wrote:That's correct, apparently Lonny threw the biggest hissy fit over Exxos asking if he could use the existing one instead of writing his own. I spent five minutes on mine so far, but I intend for it to also be able to search within the file contents. Maybe you could complain on Lonny's site being "broken" and incomplete then?


:roll: If you make your own site - your own HTML, your own database, your own php-code - to index these documents then that's something else. Now you have only copied the files and the appearance from Lonny's site, calling it a "mirror" when it is in fact a broken snapshot. It's perfectly understandable that Lonny does not like these pages that claims to be representative for his work.

troed wrote:
joska wrote:publish copies of his work

One of the files on the site is Doit_Archives-ELiTE_2006.zip. Now, as can be guessed from the filename this isn't really "Lonny's work". It's an Elite crack of the well known Doit archives. I'm not sure what the opinion was in 2006, but when I cracked the DoitST archive in 2000 it was not appreciated at all by its authors.


The well-supported, active Doit archives? Your point is? The big majority of the docs on dev-docs are copyrighted. That's a reality when dealing with retro computers, and to my knowledge Lonny has never claimed copyright for these. But there is a big difference between active, supported sites and abandoned sites/projects. The latter must be copied/mirrored/preserved as far as possible because they are bound to disappear.

troed wrote:But I never tried to claim it was "my work" at least


We all know that you did this to prove a point. And you did - you created a copy with the same deficiencies as exxos did because you did not understand what you were copying.

If Lonny wanted a mirror of his site then I'm sure he would have been happy to mirror the actual site somewhere. But he's not interested. And he's definitely not interested in broken copies popping up, claiming to be a "mirror" of his own work. Please respect that.

(Edit: Fixed order of screenshots.)
(Edit 2: My example was wrong, I had made a typo in the URL. Sorry about that. Example replaced.)
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Last edited by joska on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:13 pm

joska wrote:So where is this file on your copy? And believe me, you've got loads of these cases.


Here: https://troed.ddns.net/www.dev-docs.org ... t/APR3.PDF

Easily found by typing "apr" in the search box. Now stop posting nonsense, I have verified that wget produces a good copy of the site, counted all the links, and added a search script (which, server side, cannot be gotten through wget).

We all know that you did this to prove a point. And you did - you created a copy with the same deficiencies as exxos did because you did not understand what you were copying.


Someone does not understand something here, I agree. For each new post you make you drive that point home pretty well.

/Troed

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:19 pm

See my updated post. My example was based on a typo in the URL (APR3.pdf instead of APR3.PDF).
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:22 pm

troed wrote:Now stop posting nonsense, I have verified that wget produces a good copy of the site, counted all the links, and added a search script (which, server side, cannot be gotten through wget).


See my corrected example.

What you have done is to compare what you can *see* with what wget *sees*. And that is almost the same. But how do you know that the search-script is the only thing wget has missed? You don't. Do you know *anything* about how Lonny's site is built, apart from what you can see?

troed wrote:Someone does not understand something here, I agree. For each new post you make you drive that point home pretty well. /Troed


Riiight... So presenting a crippled copy of a fellow enthusiaSTs work as a "mirror" is perfectly OK. In that case you wouldn't mind if I presented a distorted, erroneous interpretation of your lecture on the shifter as your work?
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:40 pm

joska wrote:See my updated post. My example was based on a typo in the URL (APR3.pdf instead of APR3.PDF).


I'm sure Lonny will appreciate your info on all orphan files that aren't linked to from any of the categories. This one (ataripf.zip) looks to be something that should go under 3rd party docs.

joska wrote:In that case you wouldn't mind if I presented a distorted, erroneous interpretation of your lecture on the shifter as your work?


You're free to continue making a fool of yourself, of course. I've seen many erroneous posts regarding my GLUE research (as have Ijor, sometimes done by me). We don't go into hissy fits about it.

I had hoped the thread would've ended with your realization that your opinion of how someone should've handled a mirror was exactly the same as how exxos did handle it. But maybe that wasn't really what it was about for you.

troed wrote:
joska wrote:There is no need for mirrors these days, it's a thing of the past were bandwidth was an issue. If you're concerned about this site disappearing - go ahead, keep an offline copy for yourself. No need to publish it unless the real site actually disappears.


Guess what - that's exactly what Exxos did (see the links I posted earlier). I think that fact concludes the thread nicely.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:59 pm

troed wrote:Im sure Lonny will appreciate your info on all orphan files that aren't linked to from any of the categories. This one (ataripf.zip) looks to be something that should go under 3rd party docs.


Why do you think it's orphaned? You see, this is the problem with your copy - you've only copied what wget can find a direct URL to. So have you still "confirmed" that your copy is exact? In fact, you're missing around 8% of the content. You still don't understand why Lonny is upset by these "mirrors"?

troed wrote:I had hoped the thread would've ended with your realization that your opinion of how someone should've handled a mirror was exactly the same as how exxos did handle it. But maybe that wasn't really what it was about for you.

troed wrote:
joska wrote:There is no need for mirrors these days, it's a thing of the past were bandwidth was an issue. If you're concerned about this site disappearing - go ahead, keep an offline copy for yourself. No need to publish it unless the real site actually disappears.


Guess what - that's exactly what Exxos did (see the links I posted earlier). I think that fact concludes the thread nicely.


And what did exxos do when Lonny approached him?

Since then the original site has come back and I wasn't going to undo my work and thought it would make more sense to keep my mirror updated.


I will stop here. I will just once again ask to please respect Lonny's wish to *not* publish these incomplete mirrors. When Lonny drops support for this site, then go ahead. But until then, show some respect.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby ijor » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:08 pm

Come on people, let it go ...

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby FedePede04 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:07 pm

for me its very simple, if you make / write something you got full rights over it.
so if others use your work without your consent, then they are breaking the copyright law.

i know that Lonny have things on his site, that he did not do. but those thing is long forgotten by the people that hold the rights for it. so if he or others don't post them, they will all be gone forever. so this is clearly an other case.

do you also think, that it would be ok, if one today make a game and sell it for eg. 10 pound, and other start copy it like in the 80', even if lets say, that he use 1 year of his life to make the game?

i don't understand why Exxos not just download all the contents, and add it to his own site, with his own web design and his own description of the contents. then there would not have been any problems.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby wongck » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:45 pm

joska wrote:HE DOES NOT WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO F**K WITH HIS WORK. It shouldn't be hard to respect that, even if you disagree?


This is a good point.
And many great Atari products developer also feels this way.
Didier did not want ppl to do that to his CTPCI stuff.... yeah the source is lost now. But we all have to respect that.
The last great version of his software we are using now.... not one that is mangled by someone else.

And also the people here calling for more software to be open source.... that's also need to be respected if author says no.
Then there are people who keep on nagging the author to open source their stuff.... give tons of reason why they should do so.
Give it up.... it is no.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby piku » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:08 am

Speaking as someone who has mirrored sites in the past (http://storage.atari-source.org/atari/mirrors/), I would have been really surprised to find out someone was upset that I did that. It never occurred to me that it would be decent to ask. I just want to make sure I don't lose access to stuff, like now I can't access gentoo.atariforge.org. My only worry ever has been if I cause someone a bandwidth bill. I guess I'm rude ;)
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby mikro » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:09 am

piku wrote:I just want to make sure I don't lose access to stuff, like now I can't access gentoo.atariforge.org.

Feel free to mirror it then. :)

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby joska » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:26 am

piku wrote:Speaking as someone who has mirrored sites in the past (http://storage.atari-source.org/atari/mirrors/), I would have been really surprised to find out someone was upset that I did that.


Never seen your site before so I don't know if it has been publicly known. But if it is - don't be surprised if someone gets upset by a "mirror" that has not been updated in four years. If you mirror an actively supported site, you must atleast keep it up to date to call it a mirror. And have the decency to ask first.

Keeping a local copy for yourself is something else.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby GokMasE » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:38 am

joska wrote:Never seen your site before so I don't know if it has been publicly known. But if it is - don't be surprised if someone gets upset by a "mirror" that has not been updated in four years. If you mirror an actively supported site, you must atleast keep it up to date to call it a mirror. And have the decency to ask first.

Keeping a local copy for yourself is something else.



+1

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby piku » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:09 am

You're right.. I should probably call it a backup just in case the site disappears. I am not interested in offering an alternative source for a live site. I'm just interested in preservation of *something* even if outdated in case it disappears. At one point my mirrors were actually kept up to date but they've moved servers repeatedly and some of the original sources are gone. My copies were not pushed public hard but people have found them and shared links. And thanks Mikro, I probably will copy that if you don't mind.. but I guess Alan never did publish the portage source scripts and patches used to build these binary packages. That is what I would leverage if it was available to help push me through work on RPMint. It's not really a big deal and it is fun to do the package ports and you learn a lot by having to do that work. I have the most serious system level tools ported, patched, updated and working reasonably well and especially now you (Mikro) and vincent have done the hardest work on the most customized packages like gcc and binutils.
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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby mikro » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:57 am

Go ahead Mark, do mirror it. In fact, I've just discovered exactly what you have mentioned -- your mirrors are much better updated than my private copies. So your effort has definitely paid off.

And I share your pain with the lack of source patches for gentoo, I've been particularly interested in one library (libdld, to make perl work) which Alan patched a few years back but he's been busy lately so I couldn't get my hands on it.

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Re: What hapened to atariforge? dev-docs moved.

Postby troed » Sat May 05, 2018 8:10 am

So I guess we just hit peak irony.

Screen Shot 2018-05-05 at 10.05.35.png


It was never my intention for my mirror to be made public, I made it just to prove a point. However, I guess it now has some actual use.
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