EmuTOS 0.9.8

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EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby anodyne » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:00 am

The EmuTOS developers are please to announce the release of EmuTOS 0.9.8. In case you didn't know, EmuTOS is a GEMDOS-compatible operating system for Atari computers and is a free and open source replacement for common TOS images for Atari emulators.

The main new features of EmuTOS 0.9.8 are:
- BIOS: Autodetect IDE interface with twisted cable at run-time
- EmuDesk: Add support for desktop shortcuts
- EmuDesk: Add support for formatting floppies
- EmuDesk: Add support for user-assignable desktop icons

You can easily test EmuTOS on your real Atari hardware. Get emutos-prg*.zip from the link below, extract the PRG matching your favorite language, put it on a floppy (or hard disk partition), run it on your Atari, and you're done!

You can download your preferred binary archive here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/emutos/ ... tos/0.9.8/

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby DarkLord » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:57 am

Thanks for all the (continued) hard work on this guys! :)
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby itaboy » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:37 am

Well done. Just downloaded it.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:59 am

Thanks Roger.
The desktop shortcuts is great !!
Now I do not have to open all those folders to run something.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:37 pm

MiST FPGA simulation started from ST, and moved from there to other 80's computers. EmuTOS OS started from ST and moved from there to Amiga, so far...

I wonder whether EmuTOS will eventually cover a larger number of the m68k machines simulated by MiST (MachinTos, Sinclair QL)? :-)

(Not really being serious, but Vincent has certainly made the porting work easier to others with his EmuTOS (and MiNT, fVDI etc) refactoring for the Amiga support. )

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:49 pm

What I always thought would be great if there is a native Intel TOS like environment, with JIT emulation for the software.
So if EMUTOS moves to Intel CPU... that's a first step.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Faucon2001 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:20 pm

wongck wrote:What I always thought would be great if there is a native Intel TOS like environment, with JIT emulation for the software.
So if EMUTOS moves to Intel CPU... that's a first step.

We are two !
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby ThorstenOtto » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:03 am

wongck wrote:What I always thought would be great if there is a native Intel TOS like environment, with JIT emulation for the software.
So if EMUTOS moves to Intel CPU... that's a first step.


Aranym does that already, both for intel and arm. And if you meant to compile TOS/AES/VDI etc natively and jit-compile only the apps, that might be slightly faster in the end, but in practive would be hardly noticeable. Remember that such an enironment is only suitable for clean GEM programs, or console only programs. Such program wil either wait for user input, when they don't benefit at all, or do some calculations where they wouldn't benefit from a native OS. And graphics output is already done in native VDI code thanks to the NatFeats interface. I would make a guess at a pure native OS would be at most 5-10% faster in the end.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:01 pm

Sorry what I mean is to be able to bootstrap to TOS without any other underlying OS.
Aranym, sure is doing that but needed some OS before it.

Speed wise, i think running on my pentium mobo that i have somewhere in my cupboard ( if it has not rusted away) will be faster than any pre-1995 Atari.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Faucon2001 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:37 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:I would make a guess at a pure native OS would be at most 5-10% faster in the end.

Yes, for sure at emutos level, but at least you'll avoid to install a Linux layer (500 MB) to run it and deal with this kind of schizophrenic system where you have to setup 2 differents layers. It also opens the doors to native apps running at full speed, but for that you need to port also the whole GCC environnement.
Mint and all its extensions, FVDI, Netsurf, teradesk, smurf, GBE for example ... can benefit of a significant boost I guess.
I understand that's a hell of a work, but in the end it's a kind of chicken and eggs issue. If there is no x86 emutos, nobody will try to port the GCC environment, Mint .... making this option less interesting and nobody will look at it.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby christos » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:35 pm

There is Freedos and Freegem for that though. I am not sure how compatible to TOS/GEM the functions etc are but from what I read, porting applications shouldn't be too hard.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby ThorstenOtto » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:58 pm

christos wrote:There is Freedos and Freegem for that though.

They need a 16-bit DOS environment, and therefor don't run anymore on modern OS. Only solution i could get them to work is by using dosbox on linux.

I am not sure how compatible to TOS/GEM the functions etc are but from what I read, porting applications shouldn't be too hard.


Handling of ACCs and running programs is quite different there, so getting something like teradesk to work would be quite difficult. Not to mention the 640k memory limit.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby ThorstenOtto » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:09 pm

wongck wrote:Sorry what I mean is to be able to bootstrap to TOS without any other underlying OS.


Sorry i still don't understand, do you mean compiling some TOS program (to native, eg x86 code), then "link" it to an x86 version of EmuTOS? For console programs, that would not make much sense, if you are able to compile them, then you can most likely just compile some native version anyway, without using TOS at all.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby christos » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:23 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
christos wrote:There is Freedos and Freegem for that though.

They need a 16-bit DOS environment, and therefor don't run anymore on modern OS. Only solution i could get them to work is by using dosbox on linux.

I am not sure how compatible to TOS/GEM the functions etc are but from what I read, porting applications shouldn't be too hard.


Handling of ACCs and running programs is quite different there, so getting something like teradesk to work would be quite difficult. Not to mention the 640k memory limit.


Hmmm, that's strange because we can get a modern laptop here with freedos. But I must admit I only have a passing familiarity with it.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Faucon2001 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:25 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
wongck wrote:Sorry what I mean is to be able to bootstrap to TOS without any other underlying OS.


Sorry i still don't understand, do you mean compiling some TOS program (to native, eg x86 code), then "link" it to an x86 version of EmuTOS? For console programs, that would not make much sense, if you are able to compile them, then you can most likely just compile some native version anyway, without using TOS at all.

What Wongck means, is having Emutos as a full native OS for a x86 platform, that is to say, booting directly to emutos without any underlying OS : native bios,xbios, gemdos, vdi and aes.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby ThorstenOtto » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:42 pm

Faucon2001 wrote:What Wongck means, is having Emutos as a full native OS for a x86 platform, that is to say, booting directly to emutos without any underlying OS : native bios,xbios, gemdos, vdi and aes.


And what programs should run there? I don't know of any TOS programs compiled natively for x86, and at the same time using GEMDOS/AES/VDI.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Faucon2001 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:17 pm

See my post 6 steps above.
1- Emutos x86 + 68k emulator at the beginning.
2 - Port GCC libs and tool chain to x86
3 - Recompilation of Mint, fvdi and all modern apps to x86 target, and for old apps it will be emulation only.
That's what was done for the Firebee, no?
As I said before, it's a chicken and egg issue : no emutos x86, no port.
Ok, I am not saying that's an easy task, but that's an interesting path to investigate : Atari system running natively on several platform. The same could be done for ARM platform too.
What is the benefit : open an option to other plateform (which exist, are cheaper and easy to source), without needing a heavy host system + emulator, serious potential gain of speed (today we can't expect to have a decent web browser because not even Aranym is fast enough to deal with modern web browsing or security protocols : x86 or Arm can), and it could be a lot of fun (we are doing that for fun, aren't we?)
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby mfro » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:22 pm

Keep on dreaming. This will never happen.

It took 16 years (yes, sixteen) to bring up EmuTOS from the DR sources to where we are today. For a very simple, well documented, easily understandable, 25 years old machine with only a handful of interfaces. Compared to TOS 1.0 "only" the BDOS and BIOS were missing. EmuTOS still lacks SCSI and blitter support (but I'm sure we'll see that eventually, it's just a matter of time).

Bootstrapping an OS for a "modern" x86 machine is a very different task. You'll need to support different boot mechanisms (UEFI, traditional ROM BIOS), you'll need to support different processors, USB for at least keyboard and mouse, lots of different memory configurations and all that. Although most of the current EmuTOS code is written in C, it still contains roughly 35000 lines of m68k assembler required to be translated into x86 code (by a team that - at least to my knowledge - can't really considered "x86 savvy").

People would expect you to support their specific graphics cards (in all technically possible resolutions and bit depths, of course), their sound system and network card and they would expect to plug arbitrary USB components into the machine that would just work and what not.

And they'd probably expect a 64 bit OS as only very few have less than 2 GB of memory in their PC's nowadays and you want to use what you've paid for. TOS and GEM is far from being 64bit-ready. Lots of internal structures expect a pointer to be interchangeable with a long int and an integer to be 16 bit word. Even if you got that far, you'll realize you have no applications for it.

If you don't get a team of 10 or so talented and motivated full time (paid) programmers, this will probably take not only 17, but more like 50 years. Most of the Atari fans in here probably haven't as much lifetime left to wait for that ;)

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Faucon2001 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:39 pm

The good think of dreaming is that it worths nothing and time is not an issue.
Sure that in 50 years, I may have worn the waranty, but who knows, 100 years looks quite achievable today ;-)
Thanks for this in detail explaination, and I am starting to understand the complexity of it.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:44 am

ThorstenOtto wrote:
wongck wrote:Sorry what I mean is to be able to bootstrap to TOS without any other underlying OS.


Sorry i still don't understand, do you mean compiling some TOS program (to native, eg x86 code), then "link" it to an x86 version of EmuTOS? For console programs, that would not make much sense, if you are able to compile them, then you can most likely just compile some native version anyway, without using TOS at all.


Just think of it as a possible migration path to x86 architecture like what Apple did....
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:48 am

Faucon2001 wrote:See my post 6 steps above.
1- Emutos x86 + 68k emulator at the beginning.
2 - Port GCC libs and tool chain to x86
3 - Recompilation of Mint, fvdi and all modern apps to x86 target, and for old apps it will be emulation only.
That's what was done for the Firebee, no?
As I said before, it's a chicken and egg issue : no emutos x86, no port.
Ok, I am not saying that's an easy task, but that's an interesting path to investigate : Atari system running natively on several platform. The same could be done for ARM platform too.
What is the benefit : open an option to other plateform (which exist, are cheaper and easy to source), without needing a heavy host system + emulator, serious potential gain of speed (today we can't expect to have a decent web browser because not even Aranym is fast enough to deal with modern web browsing or security protocols : x86 or Arm can), and it could be a lot of fun (we are doing that for fun, aren't we?)


Exactly... and we can just do this for ARM, not x86... no difference.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:56 am

mfro wrote:Keep on dreaming. This will never happen.

It took 16 years (yes, sixteen) to bring up EmuTOS from the DR sources to where we are today. For a very simple, well documented, easily understandable, 25 years old machine with only a handful of interfaces. Compared to TOS 1.0 "only" the BDOS and BIOS were missing. EmuTOS still lacks SCSI and blitter support (but I'm sure we'll see that eventually, it's just a matter of time).

Bootstrapping an OS for a "modern" x86 machine is a very different task. You'll need to support different boot mechanisms (UEFI, traditional ROM BIOS), you'll need to support different processors, USB for at least keyboard and mouse, lots of different memory configurations and all that. Although most of the current EmuTOS code is written in C, it still contains roughly 35000 lines of m68k assembler required to be translated into x86 code (by a team that - at least to my knowledge - can't really considered "x86 savvy").


Yeap dream, I keep doing that.
Rome wasn't build in a day.

I dreamt of having a weather gadget on my Teradesk, I dreamt of being able to print to my network printer and also do a PDF from my Atari. At least I tried. Without those dream I never would have done those. Sure, this OS stuff is much more than what knowledge I have so I did not attempt to do anything about it. I hope someone with such great knowledge will attempt this phenomenal task.

Like what Gary said on Wednesday ""This isn't going to be easy. Doing big things never is."
And this is big, changing the entire CPU landscape.

Just imagine, we now hoping for the few to make 680x0 mobos for us. With this move, we already have tons of ARM boards ready for us to use, and we need software developers, there seems to be more software developers.

If we keep on inside the 680x0 cocoon, we be restricted and cannot drive beyond your cocoon.
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:11 am

wongck wrote:Yeap dream, I keep doing that.
Rome wasn't build in a day.

I dreamt of having a weather gadget on my Teradesk, I dreamt of being able to print to my network printer and also do a PDF from my Atari. At least I tried. Without those dream I never would have done those. Sure, this OS stuff is much more than what knowledge I have so I did not attempt to do anything about it. I hope someone with such great knowledge will attempt this phenomenal task.

Like what Gary said on Wednesday ""This isn't going to be easy. Doing big things never is."
And this is big, changing the entire CPU landscape.

Just imagine, we now hoping for the few to make 680x0 mobos for us. With this move, we already have tons of ARM boards ready for us to use, and we need software developers, there seems to be more software developers.

If we keep on inside the 680x0 cocoon, we be restricted and cannot drive beyond your cocoon.


You make some good points. I think a move to ARM would be a boon. Maybe even better than using fpga tech.

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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby Faucon2001 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:22 am

Wongck, are you reading inside my mind ? ;-)
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Re: EmuTOS 0.9.8

Postby wongck » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:38 am

Faucon2001 wrote:Wongck, are you reading inside my mind ? ;-)


if I am force sensitive and able to do that.... I would mind trick Vincent & Roger to make an ARM Emutos :lol:
Even use it on someone else at Intel.... NXP.... and who knows....
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